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Thursday 26 May 2022

Bromide for Autism? Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

 

Hôtel de Ville (City Hall) Tours, France, Gateway to the Loire Valley and Home to iBrain

Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/user:Tango7174

 

We do seem to be going round in circles in this blog.  One doctor reader contacted me recently to tell me about Pentoxifylline for cognitive improvement. I told him that I am not surprised and that in the world of autism Pentoxifylline has been known to be beneficial for half a century. 

The abstract below is from a Japanese paper in 1978

 

On our experience in using pentoxifylline for abnormal behavior and the autistic syndrome

Abstract

Describes the successful use of pentoxifylline (150–600 mg/day) with 3–15 yr old children with abnormal behavior (e.g., self-mutilation, aggressiveness, and hyperkinesis) and with autism. It is noted that while the drug was effective in reducing symptoms of autism, developmental factors in the disorder should not be ignored.

 

You might wonder why it has not been widely adopted, at least for some people with autism. 

When it comes to Potassium Bromide (KBr) I found a case history from 150 years ago of its successful use in a little girl with epilepsy, autism and impaired cognition. She was treated at what is today London’s top children’s hospital, Great Ormond Street.

KBr was the original treatment for epilepsy.  It is still used in countries following German medicine; indeed, it is can be the only effective treatment for those with Dravet Syndrome.

Interestingly, Great Ormond Street Hospital has restarted the use of KBr in childhood epilepsy, specially importing its drugs from Germany.

 

Bromide for epilepsy – Great Ormond Street Hospital

            https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/conditions-and-treatments/medicines-information/bromide-epilepsy/

 

In the US, KBr is only used for canine and equine epilepsy.  It does not work well on cats, incidentally.

Back in 2016, I did propose KBr as an add-on therapy for those with autism who respond to bumetanide.  This was part of my effort to develop a “super bumetanide”, to increase the bumetanide effect.

 

In a quote from today’s feature paper, from iBrain at the University of Tours, France:- 

“beneficial effects (of bromide) were superior to those of chronic bumetanide administration” 

in one mouse model of autism. 

When I was asked to give a presentation in the US on bumetanide for autism, there was one condition, “please don’t mention potassium bromide … we don’t want people trying it.”

Yes, it’s OK to talk about treating autism, but please don’t actually do it.

Move forward a few years and a doctor friend recently highlighted to me a new paper from France proposing Sodium Bromide for autism.

I did rather think here we go again, been there done that.

My conclusion back in 2016 was that yes it does provide a benefit; but it does have some drawbacks.  It has a very long half-life, meaning if you keep taking the same daily amount, it will take 5 weeks to reach its peak level in your bloodstream.

It does increase mucous secretions, in a dose dependent fashion.  This is not a problem in canine epilepsy, but in humans it will lead to spots (bromo-acne).  It could make asthma worse.

In the case of children with Dravet Syndrome, they have a high rate of death from epilepsy, or SUDEP (Sudden unexpected death in epilepsy).  So, I don’t suppose parents are going to worry about a few spots.

 

Potassium bromide in clinical trials for Dravet Syndrome

Potassium bromide has not been tested in randomized clinical trials specifically for Dravet syndrome patients. Some small studies suggest, however, that it might benefit Dravet syndrome patients.

retrospective study analyzed data from 32 Dravet syndrome patients carrying an SCN1A mutation. Six patients received potassium bromide temporarily as monotherapy, while 26 patients received the medication as add-on therapy. The mean treatment duration was 47 months with a mean maximum daily oral dose of 63.2 mg per kilogram (kg) body weight of potassium bromide.

Three months after treatment began, 31 % of the patients experienced complete seizure control. Seizures were reduced by more than 75% in 6% of the patients, and by more than 50% in 19% of them.

 

My old post from 2016:

 

Potassium Bromide for Intractable Epilepsy and perhaps some Autism


My idea was to see if you can get a meaningful benefit from a low dose and avoid any side effects. Rather than the 63.2 mg/kg for Dravet Syndrome seizures, I thought a reasonable dose was 8 mg/kg to further treat the E/I imbalance in Bumetanide responsive autism.  Why 8mg/kg? Well, that was half a tablet. 

 

Sodium Bromide for Autism, proposed by the French researchers

 

Chronic sodium bromide treatment relieves autistic-like behavioral deficits in three mouse models of autism

 

Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) are neurodevelopmental disorders whose diagnosis relies on deficient social interaction and communication together with repetitive behavior. To date, no pharmacological treatment has been approved that ameliorates social behavior in patients with ASD. Based on the excitation/inhibition imbalance theory of autism, we hypothesized that bromide ions, long used as an antiepileptic medication, could relieve core symptoms of ASD. We evaluated the effects of chronic sodium bromide (NaBr) administration on autistic-like symptoms in three genetic mouse models of autism: Oprm1−/−, Fmr1−/− and Shank3Δex13-16−/− mice. We showed that chronic NaBr treatment relieved autistic-like behaviors in these three models. In Oprm1−/− mice, these beneficial effects were superior to those of chronic bumetanide administration. At transcriptional level, chronic NaBr in Oprm1 null mice was associated with increased expression of genes coding for chloride ions transporters, GABAA receptor subunits, oxytocin and mGlu4 receptor. Lastly, we uncovered synergistic alleviating effects of chronic NaBr and a positive allosteric modulator (PAM) of mGlu4 receptor on autistic-like behavior in Oprm1−/− mice. We evidenced in heterologous cells that bromide ions behave as PAMs of mGlu4, providing a molecular mechanism for such synergy. Our data reveal the therapeutic potential of bromide ions, alone or in combination with a PAM of mGlu4 receptor, for the treatment of ASDs.

 

Compromised E/I balance in ASD may result from several neuropathological mechanisms. On the excitation side, glutamatergic transmission was found altered both in patients and animal models, although in different directions depending on genetic mutations/ models [9, 18, 19]. On the inhibition side, decreased levels of GABA [20] and expression of GABAA and GABAB receptors (postmortem analyses, [21, 22]), as well as genetic polymorphisms in GABAA receptor subunits [23, 24], have been detected in patients with autism. Accordingly, decreased GABAergic neurotransmission has been reported in several ASD models [25–29]. Alternatively, it was proposed that GABA neurons remain immature in ASD, maintaining high intracellular concentrations of chloride ion (Cl−) whose efflux through activated GABAA receptor induced neuronal depolarization [30]. Intracellular Cl− concentration is under the control of the main Cl− importer NKCC1 (Na+-K+-2Cl− cotransporter) and its main exporter KCC2. Therefore blocking NKCC1 using the loop diuretic and antiepileptic drug [31, 32] bumetanide appeared a promising therapeutic approach in ASD. Accordingly, bumetanide improved autistic-like phenotype in rodent models of ASD [33] and relieved autistic behavior in small cohorts of patients [34, 35].

 

Bromide ion (Br−) was the first effective treatment identified for epilepsy [36] and long used as anxiolytic and hypnotic [37]. With the advent of novel antiepileptic and anxiolytic drugs, its use was progressively dropped down, although it remains a valuable tool to treat refractory seizures [38, 39]. At molecular level, Br− shares similar chemical and physical properties with Cl−, allowing it substituting Cl− in multiple cellular mechanisms. These include anion influx through activated GABAA receptor, with higher permeability to Br− compared to Cl− resulting in neuronal hyperpolarization [40], and transport through the NKCC and KCC cotransporters [41, 42]. In view of the E/I imbalance theory, these properties point to Br− as an interesting candidate for ASD treatment.

 

Here we assessed the effects of chronic sodium bromide administration on core autistic-like symptoms: social deficit and stereotypies, and a frequent comorbid symptom: anxiety, in three genetic mouse models of autism with different etiologies: Oprm1−/−, Fmr1−/− (preclinical model of Fragile X syndrome) and Shank3Δex13-16−/− mice, lacking the gene coding the mu opioid receptor or the FMRP protein for the formers, or the exons 13−16 of the Shank3 gene, coding for the PDZ domain of the SHANK3 protein, for the later. Altered E/I balance and/or modified expression of involved genes have been reported for these three models [28, 43–47]; the Oprm1 knockout model presents the advantage of limited impact on learning performance [44]. We evidenced that Br− treatment alleviates behavioral deficits in these three models and increases expression of various genes within the social brain circuit of Oprm1 null mice. We unraveled that Br− not only increases mGlu4 receptor gene expression but also potentiates the effects of the positive allosteric modulator (PAM) of mGlu4 VU0155041, in Oprm1−/− mice and in hetero[1]logous cells. Our data reveal the therapeutic potential of Br− administration and its combination with a PAM of mGlu4 receptor for the treatment of ASD. 

 

RESULTS

Chronic sodium bromide relieved autistic-like symptoms in Oprm1−/− mice more efficiently than bumetanide

Chronic sodium bromide relieved social behavior deficits, stereotypies and excessive anxiety in Fmr1−/− and Shank3Δex13-16−/− mice

Chronic sodium bromide modulates transcription in the reward circuit of Oprm1−/− mice

Synergistic effects of chronic bromide and mGlu4 receptor facilitation in Oprm1 null mice

Bromide ions behave as positive allosteric modulators of the mGlu4 glutamate receptor

 

In conclusion, the present study reports the therapeutic potential of chronic bromide treatment, alone or in combination with a PAM of mGlu4 receptor, to relieve core symptoms of ASD. Beneficial effects of bromide were observed in three mouse models of ASD with different genetic causes, supporting high translational value. Moreover, bromide has a long history of medical use, meaning that its pharmacodynamics and toxicity are well known, which, combined with long-lasting effects as well as excellent oral bioavailability and brain penetrance, are strong advantages for repurposing.

 

 

Conclusion

The doctor treating Ida at Great Ormond Street 150 years ago noted that after treatment with KBr she developed age-appropriate play skills.  That is very much the same effect as bumetanide in a young child with severe autism and IQ<70.

My trials of 400mg of KBr produced a “bumetanide+” effect and feedback from other bumetanide super-responders was in line with this. Higher doses than mine were used.

The effects of KBr overlap with those of Bumetanide, but it is possible that there may be more KBr responders than Bumetanide responders.  KBr has interesting effects beyond those of Bumetanide. It is definitely worth considering KBr, even if the person is not a bumetanide responder.

The French researchers in today’s paper propose that Bromide be repurposed for autism – they definitely have the right idea.  They did note the 8-14 day half-life in humans.

In the advisory from Great Ormond Street it is noted:

“Your child will need to have regular blood tests to monitor the amount of bromide in their blood – this usually happens around four weeks or so after starting to take the medication, or four weeks after the dose is increased. 

I think the aim should be maximize the benefits of KBr, without incurring the side effects that will occur at high doses.  KBr might be best as an add-on therapy in autism.

The 60mg/kg dose from Dravet Syndrome is 8 times the bumetanide add-on dosage I suggested.

One of the models used in the French trial was that for Fragile X syndrome, the others were the Mu Opioid Receptor Null model and the Shank3B−/−, lacking the PDZ domain.

Fragile X is one of the most common types of human autism and is apparent from facial features. Bromide for human Fragile X ?

In case you are wondering, whether to choose sodium bromide (NaBr) or potassium bromide (KBr), it is the bromide ions (Br-) that are critical to its effect on the E/I imbalance.  Personally, I prefer KBr, because most people have too much sodium and too little potassium in their diet.  People taking bumetanide should be taking extra potassium anyway.

Interestingly, from the UK guidance: -

“Salt and salty foods can reduce how well bromide works. Try to limit the amount of salty foods your child eats and do not add salt to cooked foods if possible.

One other medical formulation of bromide is called triple bromide and contains three different variations of bromide:  ammonium bromide, potassium bromide and sodium bromide.

Hopefully it will not take 50 years to establish the usefulness (or not) of bromide as an autism therapy.

It was mentioned first in this blog, back in 2016.

In 2017 some French people filed a patent, claiming to be the inventors of bromide as a treatment for autism.


WO2018096184- BROMIDE SOURCE FOR USE IN TREATING AUTISM SPECTRAL DISORDER








52 comments:

  1. Hello, Peter, this is Grace. I have a quick question on the Plasmalogens supplement. It seems to help with cognitive impairment in mild Alzheimer. I am curious if it will help with cognitive impairment in Autism. Then I found this URL where Dr. Goodenowe claims that it helps someone with autism: https://drgoodenowe.com/2020/05/22/4-reaping-the-benefits-of-plasmalogens/ . Just checking if you heard about this plasmalogens supplement. Thank you, Grace.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grace, these supplements are ultra-expensive. They are promoted by someone who describes himself as:

      “My name is Dr. Goodenowe. I am the world expert on the biochemical basis of life, disease, and death.”

      It is known that in certain neurological conditions plasmalogen lipids are reduced, but there is no agreement as to whether increasing plasmalogen lipids will provide a benefit. It is also thought that raising the levels inside the brain may not be possible. You can raise the level in your blood, but that is not the same thing.

      Functions of plasmalogen lipids in health and disease
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925443912001160?via%3Dihub

      We have no real way of knowing if Dr Goodenowe’s mixture is going to help autism, more than an omega 3 fish oil with DHA and EPA.

      Delete
  2. Thank you Peter for the information. I am also skeptical for the supplement. Grace.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hi Peter,
    Not sure this contains anything you don't know, it seemed more like they'd been reading your blog! But I thought you might find it interesting if you haven't seen it already:
    https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/10/8/1266/htm
    Oxidative Stress and Antioxidant Pathway in Allergic Rhinitis
    (mentions NAC, sulforaphane and others)
    Aspie2

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, it is interesting.

      Oxidative stress is a key feature of many medical conditions and aging. It is good for those people to make use of antioxidants.

      Delete
  4. I’m curious if Verapamil Extended Release has been tried by you?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stephen, where we live there is not an equivalent dose ER version.

      One doctor reader did try the ER version in her son and found it less beneficial.

      It looks like a sharp effect that fades is more helpful than a more constant effect. We also saw this with oral potassium supplements vs food that contains potassium, which is absorbed slowly.

      Delete
    2. I have tried verapamil extended release. I still needed to take it 3 times a day. I also found it harder to fall asleep sometimes. I have not tried any of the verapamil 24hr once daily versions; though I have tried diltiazem CD. Right now I'm using regular verapamil 3 times a day.

      -Martin

      Delete
    3. Thanks, Martin
      This seems to be the usual result.

      Delete
  5. Great work Peter! The KBr intervention was not one I expected to see picked up and tested by anyone so soon (except a few parents of course).

    ReplyDelete
  6. Almost forgot to mention, but so far I have mixed results on that allergy intervention I wrote about earlier - loaded beta-lactoglobulin ("Holo-BLG" or tradename ImmunoBon).

    After a 3 month period with 2 lozenges per day my own pollen allergy still is severe and I can frankly not tell if it did anything to me. There could be several reasons for this like a) this doesn't work on people with severe/many allergies or b) a 6 month period would give more notable results or even c) I should not have supplemented with iron simultaneously as it could interfere with those nano-iron particles.

    Some upcoming clinical trials on adult allergic women are suggesting 6 months use.

    Noteworthy is that my daughter's winter eczema disappeared soon after she started 1 lozenge per day, and her usual allergy eczema never showed up even during the worst pollen season. But two weeks after stopping the intervention with just a few allergens still lingering in the air at the end of the season I could see her starting to scratch her arm creases for the first time this year...

    The science part of this still looks impressive to me, here's one of several articles that explains a lot (sorry if it is a repost):
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40629-021-00197-z

    The product is not cheap, but neither are allergy drugs and this is supposed to act at the core problem and not just minimize symptoms.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Another one for you Peter. Mouse study so not sure if/how it translates to humans, but I don't think I've seen a link between time-restricted eating and KCC2 suggested before:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004222005375
    Aspie2

    ReplyDelete
  8. Peter,
    I'm currently trialling Qelbree, a formulation of viloxazine for ADHD in the us. Previously I was atomoxetine. - Martin

    ReplyDelete
  9. Hi Peter, I know this is an older post but curious if I can give my son potassium bromide in lieu of Bumetanide? It looks like the powdered version is available on Amazon. I’d love to try him on bumetanide but our Dr won’t prescribe it. I took your previous previous advice and looked for a MAPS dr in our area (Massachusetts, USA) but unfortunately they won’t take insurance. I read many of your posts about the GABA and I believe that my son’s GABA receptors might be “impaired” (i.e., not functioning properly) and that his chloride levels are high. When he had dental surgery last year, he had a paradoxical response to Versed, which is similar to Valium and given to patients to relax them before surgery. So it’s possible that he could be a responder, we just can’t convince his Dr to prescribe Bumetanide so I’m looking for an otc alternative, if one even exists.

    My son is 9, has intellectual disability and severe autism. He currently takes Leucovorin for speech and Nordic Naturals omega gummies (not sure if either are helping). In the past, he has been prescribed various adhd stimulants; guanfacine; buspirone; and Remeron. Unfortunately none of these have benefited him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you are going to self treat, it might be best to self treat with bumetanide from Mexico rather than potassium bromide from Amazon.

      In Mexico it is sold as Miccil and you can find it online. The prices vary substantially. You would need 40 pills to make a trial.

      Delete
    2. Thank you so much, Peter! I will try to order Miccil today. Based on what I’ve read here, it sounds like several previous Bumetanide trials may not have used a large enough dose to see any effect. Do you suggest starting at 1 mg or 0.5 mg? And should we start with one dose a day or two? Thank you for all that you do!

      Delete
    3. I suggest you start with 1mg once a day unless your son is large, in which case you might as well go with 2mg once a day.

      Given he had a paradoxical reaction to a benzodiazepine, I think you have a 95% chance of success.

      Delete
  10. Hi Peter, thank you for replying to my email about the potassium supplement. (I just realized that i should probably post my questions and updates on your blog page so that others can see your advice!). Anyways my son, age 9, has been on Bumetanide for 11 days and I believe it’s working, but it hasn’t even been two weeks yet so it could just be wishful thinking on my part! My son has been taking 1 mg every morning and he is tolerating it quite well, just peeing more. He is 9 years old, weighs 55-60 lbs (25-27 kg), has intellectual disability and severe autism. He also takes leucovorin 25 mg twice a day.

    I’m assuming that bumetanide’s benefits are greater when it’s taken twice a day, so I’m wondering when we should introduce a second daily dose? And if it should be another 1 mg (for a total of 2 mg a day)? I also want to know if it’s worth taking Bumetanide at night—it has a very short half-life, will the positive effects be present the following day? Thank you for all of your knowledge and insight, Peter. I’m very hopeful!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bumetanide is slowly reducing the level of chloride inside neurons. It will reach its maximum effect in about 2 weeks in most people. Each pill has an incremental beneficial effect.

      You can increase its effect by using a higher dose. Very little crosses into the brain. Personally I think 2mg taken once a day is more effective than 1mg taken twice a day.

      The limiting factor for most people is the diuresis and how disruptive it is for that specific person.

      Delete
    2. Hi Peter, plz send me what your mail. i want ask you something about bumetanid

      Delete
    3. Just ask your question about bumetanide here

      Delete
    4. Hi again, my son has now been on Bumetanide 1 mg / once in the morning for about 16 days. (I did give him 2 mg/once in the morning for the past three days, but I didn’t see a noticeable improvement from the original dose so I went back to 1 mg today). I noticed an increase in speech and awareness for the first week. I thought it was a placebo effect but at the end of week #1, his teacher texted me that he was answering questions accurately! That’s huge for my son! And the teacher doesn’t even know about the Bumetanide! But this past week, week #2, hasn’t been as great. My son has these cycles of anxiety, where he gets extremely repetitive, paces, exhopraxia, rigid (it actually looks similar to catatonia symptoms, which I’ll be discussing with his doctor next week). Anyways my son seems to be in one of these cycles this past week, so I’m not sure if his anxiety is just “masking” the Bumetanide effects. Basically, what I’m trying to ask is, if Bumetanide seemed to work for week #1, but then isn’t working as well during week #2….could my son still be a responder?

      Delete
    5. Thank you, Peter! My son has been on Bumetanide 1 mg/once a day for almost 3 weeks. At the end of the first week, I noticed that he seemed more “with it” and relevant; his teacher told me that he’d been responding to questions accurately all week! But since the second week, he’s been really lethargic and at times seems “frozen” —e.g., he’ll be sitting on the couch and mindlessly holding a random object, as if his hand is molded around the object. Other times, he’ll be pacing around the room, but not in an anxious way—more like a mindless and repetitive way. It looks characteristic of autistic catatonia, but not true catatonia as my son will still follow directions and comply when asked to. Fortunately, these symptoms have started to wane a bit these past few days. Anyways, I was actually thinking/hoping that these were further signs that the Bumetanide is working? Because if catatonia is linked to GABA, do you think that there’s any connection between the Bumetanide and my son’s behaviors? I don’t know anything about medical science, obviously, but I really do think that I’ve still seen slight cognitive improvements these past two weeks; even though the improvements were bigger the first week when my son was more energetic. I should mention that this week I started giving him two Potassium Citrate gummies with the Bumetanide. The bottle says that two gummies have 1000 mg of potassium citrate, which is only 21% of the daily value. I’ve been giving him two gummies, but I’m not sure if the brand is any good (bought it on Amazon ). Thank you for any insight, I really want Bumetanide to be our game-changer too!

      Delete
    6. Oh one more question…in a different post, you had mentioned adding potassium bromide to Monty’s polypill, to further boost Bumetanide’s effects. Do you suggest that I give my son potassium bromide instead of potassium citrate? Or both types of potassium? Thank you so much for all of your insight, you are truly a wealth of knowledge!

      Delete
    7. In the US potassium supplements are limited to just 100mg, which is low. I doubt your 2 gummies contain 1 000 mg. Potassium from supplements is absorbed very quickly and that is why they can potentially be harmful. I think 200 mg of potassium per 1mg of bumetanide is a good choice, plus increasing potassium from things like bananas. Potassium from food is absorbed slowly and is not risky.

      Potassium bromide has some drawbacks and is not used in humans in the US. It is used for children in Europe.

      Check how much potassium you have been giving.

      Delete
    8. Thank you, Peter! I was skeptical too, that the gummies actually contained 1000 mg. I ordered a different brand that only contains 100 mg potassium and we will try that.

      I’m wondering if Monty (or anyone who has tried Bumetanide) had consistent results with the Bumetanide? My son has taken 1 mg in the morning everyday for the past month. Week #1 was amazing, he was more “with-it”” and talking more. But Weeks #2-#4 haven’t been great. I don’t think this has anything to do with the Bumetanide, but during the second week, my son became more vacant and rigid and displaying very repetitive /catatonic behaviors. He has done this off and on before, so it’s likely unrelated to Bumetanide. It seems that whatever is causing these behaviors (inflammation? histamine?) is competing” with the Bumetanide, because its effects seem to have diminished a lot. I tried giving him 2 mg for a few days, but I didn’t notice anything different except that he was peeing even more. He has an appointment with the developmental pediatrician next month so I’ll bring it up, but just wondering if anyone else has inconsistent results with Bumetanide? And how long it took you to see a significant improvement?

      Delete
    9. Katy, two things that can happen at the beginning of Bumetanide use and indeed trigger further complications in a sensitive child, are dehydration and low blood potassium level. Do you have any chance to check potassium blood level in your son? This is not necessary long term, but could be helpful at this stage. Both hypokalemia and dehydration could be triggers for behaviors you mentioned, even if they are not directly related to Bumetanide.

      My son used to be prone to mast cell activation and histamine related episodes with severe headache and some psychiatric symptoms (somewhat similar to what you describe), which were triggered by several factors and somehow low blood potassium was one of them. This is easy to correct with potassium supplement, but best if the dose is adjusted according to lab results at the beginning.

      Also I once used Bumetanide tablets from the US which happened to contain a yellow dye that is forbidden in the EU and is mast cell degranulation trigger. It took a while until I figured out what was going on and quit using that brand.

      Possibly your son could benefit best from using Bumetanide with potassium monitoring and figuring out what's behind his cycling behaviors which apparently cannot be controlled with Bumetanide, but probably need other intervention.

      Delete
    10. Thank you so much, Agnieszka! I haven’t given him the Bumetadine this week because he had a massive pee accident at school last Friday; and his “mild catatonia” behaviors have been in full force, meaning that he is less alert and more likely to have a pee accident. He has always had cycling behaviors like this, where he’s intermittently non responsive and zoned out and mute. This latest “cycle” of catatonic behaviors started before the Bumetadine so I don’t attribute it to that. But I really do think the Bumetadine helps and I want to keep giving it to him but I’m not sure how to deal with the diuresis effect. I could give it to him at night (he still wears a pull up for bed wetting at night), but then I suppose it won’t be as effective, correct?

      Unfortunately I don’t have access to potassium testing as his doctor doesn’t recommend bumetanide. But his doctor also said that that doesn’t mean it won’t work for my son, and said we can still try it. He just doesn’t feel comfortable prescribing it. I’ve been getting the Miccil tablets from Mexico online and they don’t appear to have any dye in them, but perhaps they do. I just wish there was a way to stop the diuretic effect because I’d hate to see a regression in toilet training. Do you think that OAT3 would inhibit the diuretic effect?

      Delete
    11. Hi Katie,

      I would like to try to bumetanide for our son because we are really struggling and I think he might benefit from it so I would want to give it a small trial.
      Is there any chance you could share your source with me somehow? It would be unvaluable to us, we are at our wits end.

      Delete
    12. I believe it’s bestprice4you.com

      Bumetadine is called Miccil in Mexico

      Delete
    13. Try this what's app.

      +1 (718) 301-8411

      It's a pharmacy in India

      Delete
    14. @Unknown,

      Unfortunately that phone number does not exist on whats app. I entered it on my phone and it said the number is not on whatsapp.

      Delete
    15. @Katy,

      That domain is for sale bestprice4you.com

      Delete
    16. https://www.cheapmedicineshop.com/faq

      Here is their website if the whats app is not working.

      Delete
    17. Sorry, I think it ends in .org (not .com)

      bestprice4you.org

      Delete
  11. Wanted to mention that I’m the “anonymous” reader who had commented on this post back on December 11, 2023 at 15:24 and 17:53. My son had a paradoxical response to Versed (similar to a benzodiazepine, I believe) . Versed is a calming drug that is often given to relax patients before surgery in the US (it’s also known as “happy juice”).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What does it mean if there is a paradoxical response to a benzodiapene? My son once had some sort of calming drug in the ER and it did not help whatsoever, but unfortunately I can't find a record of what it was specifically.

      Delete
    2. If you have a paradoxical reaction to a benzodiazepine or any other GABA agonist, it means you are very likely to be a bumetanide responder. In these people GABA is working in reverse as their neurons are stuck in the immature state like prior to birth.

      If the calming drug causes agitation and aggression you have to wonder why.

      Delete
    3. That's great to hear, thank you. I'm still waiting for the bumetanide to come in the mail, it could take a few more weeks.

      Delete
  12. I also find this study interesting on infliximab and autism. Even if you decrease tnf-a you will still have problems with folate deficiency.

    https://immunology.org.ua/index.php/journal/article/view/37

    Stephen

    ReplyDelete
  13. Hi again, I really want to keep giving my son Bumetanide. But the diuresis is hard to manage.He took 1 mg every morning last month and seemed to respond dramatically the first week. And he didn’t have any pee accidents! But weeks 2-4 were tough because his behaviors came back. The behaviors are unrelated to Bumetanide, but it seemed to wipe out any benefit that Bumetanide was having on my son’s cognition. And he was having a ton of pee accidents during weeks 3 & 4, so I felt like I had to stop the Bumetanide, for fear of seeing a regression in toilet training. And also because he was having accidents at school and his teachers were concerned. I tried giving it to him early in the day, but he leaves for school at 7 am so it’s hard to give it to him earlier than 6 am. Do you have suggestions for diuresis?

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    1. Give it when he comes home from school rather than before.

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  14. Peter, thank you, I will give it to him at 3:00 in the afternoon (or 6:00 pm, on the days that he has ABA after school). We restarted 1 mg on Saturday and I plan to increase the dose to 2 mg once a day after a week or so.

    I’m curious about chloride levels and bumetanide’s short half-life—How quickly do chloride levels start to rise back up again after the bumetanide has been excreted? Can bumetanide lower the chloride levels incrementally over time, even though it’s eliminated from the body within a few hours? Or is it more like, say, acetaminophen or Ritalin, where symptoms return to baseline soon as the medication wears off? Meaning, if my son were to take bumetanide once a day at 3:00 pm (or 6:00 pm, on the days he has ABA), over time would he still reap the benefits during the school day?

    And Peter, thank you so much for the info on milk teeth and cytokines. I was poring over your posts yesterday and learned that cytokines are often higher in ASD; and that they can cause (Neuro? systemic?) inflammation when the adult teeth start to come in. This could explain my son’s catatonia-like behaviors that have been on the rise recently. He had his front baby tooth extracted over a year ago, and the adult tooth only started growing in about two months ago, which is when his molars also started to erupt. So after reading your post, I gave him ibuprofen last night and he seemed a bit better, more lively and responsive then he’s been in a couple of weeks! I gave him another dose of ibuprofen this morning before school, hopefully it helps! Thank you again, Peter!

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    1. Bumetanide gradually lowers chloride in neurons and when you stop taking it the level slowly goes back to the start point. So, if you are taking a journey by plane and diuresis would be a problem you can skip taking bumetanide for one day with no problem.

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    2. Sort of off topic, but bumetanide helps with ALS.

      Efficacy and Safety of Bumetanide in Patients with
      Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis: A Randomized
      Controlled Clinical Trial

      https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-265649/v1/6476e402-9d49-44df-b3c8-e8770875e404.pdf?c=1631878460

      -Stephen

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    3. Stephen, it is also supposed to help in Parkinson’s. I told a friend whose mother has Parkinson’s and already takes a diuretic for other reasons. She switched to Bumetanide and regained the ability to have conversations with those around her. It only improved cognition not motor issues.

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    4. Nice! Ever since Ling mentioned the messenger post I've been down a rabbit hole. If we want to lower the inflammation (Il-1b) why not lower the activated neutrophils that produce them? I think that's how Xolair works in a subset of ASD.

      Omalizumab and COVID‐19 treatment: Could it help?

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7300457/

      Peripheral Low Level Chronic LPS Injection as a Model of Neutrophil Activation in the Periphery and Brain in Mice

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10602194/

      -Stephen

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    5. Xolair would probably help ALS as well.

      Neutrophils: a subgroup of neglected immune cells in ALS

      https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/immunology/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2023.1246768/full

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  15. Just a brief update on my son and Bumetanide…I truly believe that Bumetanide works for my son, but unfortunately we had to take a break because he was diagnosed with catatonia last week (unrelated to Bumetanide). I actually think that the Bumetanide could help with the catatonia, but the problem is that the catatonia has impacted his mobility and this has made him regress in toileting. Even though he isn’t taking the Bumetanide this past week, he is having pee accidents (which he rarely had), due to catatonia. So I don’t want to compound the issue by giving him Bumetanide , which would cause diuresis and perhaps more accidents. He is now on a trial dose of lorazepam and the doctor will likely increase it until the catatonia resolves. Once we see some improvement with the catatonia , I’ll re-start the Bumetanide. I’m really hoping that the catatonia gets better, it’s quite scary and he’s never regressed like this. And I’m really eager for him to try the Bumetanide again because I really noticed improvement until the catatonia got worse

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    1. Meant to add that two days ago, my son started lorazepam 0.5 once a day (taken at night) for catatonia. So far, no adverse effects, so next week the doctor will increase the dose; he’ll keep increasing the dose until the symptoms improve. And if they don’t improve, then he will move on to clozaril and/or ECT. We don’t expect to see much change in his symptoms until the medication takes effect. In catatonia, high doses of benzodiazepines are supposed to “break” the catatonia. This is interesting because my son had a paradoxical reaction to Versed twice, which is a calming med that was given to him prior to surgery . So far, no side effects from the lorazepam though

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  16. Peter, I have a question about this. So, as you may recall, my son (age 9) is likely a Bumetanide responder, based on a one-month trial recently in February. Unfortunately, my son developed catatonia during this time so we had to pause the Bumetanide; but I want to be clear—my son’s catatonia is NOT related to the Bumetanide, it just coincidentally occurred around the same time. But we had to stop the Bumetanide because he was incontinent and not eating or drinking due
    to the catatonia. Anyways, he has since started a benzodiazepine called lorazepam 0.5 mg twice a day, and it’s helping somewhat with the catatonia but the doctor says we will need to keep increasing the lorazepam dose in order for the catatonia to fully resolve. I really want to restart the Bumetanide soon, but would a dose of 0.5-1 mg lorazepam interfere with this , seeing as though it’s not a micro-dose (like Monty’s clonazepam dose)?

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