Wednesday, 2 November 2016

Other interesting Probiotic Bacteria for Cholesterol, Osteoporosis, Diabetes, Eczema, Asthma, Cancer and perhaps some Autism

In the next 30 to 50 years I think many common diseases will be, in part, treated by bacteria.  There is already a great deal of research to show that gut bacteria play a key role in both some diseases and the effectiveness of some therapies.

I was surprised to read that the effectiveness of some common existing cancer drugs appears to depend on the presence, or not, of specific gut bacteria.

Many gut bacteria have very specific, but different, effects on the immune system.  There may be no one-size-fits-all options and it is not a case of good bacteria and bad bacteria.  Too much of some “good” bacteria and they becomes “bad” bacteria.

Taking a pragmatic approach you can look at the effects of widely available probiotic bacteria and see if any might have a beneficial effect on a specific person’s autism.

We already saw in the trials that people made following Alli from Switzerland’s revelation about the two L.reuteri bacteria found in Biogaia Gastrus, that what is good for one person might not be effective in the next person.

In my case one of the L.reuteri bacteria in Biogaia Gastrus has a profound positive effect on allergy, and hence autism, while the second bacteria has negative behavioral effects.  Fortunately, the L.reuteri protectis bacteria in Biogaia Gastrus can be purchased separately.

Not surprisingly, companies are patenting the bacteria with research-proven therapeutic effects.  Many supplement companies are using the non-patented bacteria because they are cheaper.  Very often they do not specify exactly which sub-type of bacteria they use and you have no means of knowing whether they change the bacteria over time depending on pricing and availability.

Nonetheless if you skim through the probiotic bacteria research and anecdotal evidence there are some interesting options.

First a quick recap

So far in this blog we have seen some particularly interesting individual probiotic bacteria:-

Miyairi 588 from Japan produces butyric acid in the gut.  Butyric acid has been shown to have several interesting effects.  It improves immune health and for this reason is included in animal feed.  It has been shown to improve the integrity of gut to avoid “leaky gut”.  It is an HDAC inhibitor which means it may well have epigenetic effects.  It is an alternative to using butyrate supplements.

 Lactobacillus reuteri 17938 (Lactobacillus reuteri Protectis)

This bacteria is the one we are using and it has potent effects on my son’s summertime allergy that makes his autism much worse.

Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC PTA 6475

This is a potent anti-inflammatory bacteria, but its mode of action does not agree with my son, but it seems to do great things for many others.

Viviomixx and VSL#3

We saw that many people with IBS/IBD and some with autism find these two combination bacteria helpful.  Being a mixture of bacteria means that it may be only certain ingredients that have a helpful effect in a specific person with autism.

Many people with types of IBD/IBS do seem to respond well to the combined bacteria found in Viviomixx and VSL#3.

Some other interesting, commercially available, bacteria

I came across several interesting products. 

Lactobacillus reuteri NCIMB 30242

This bacteria is very well researched and has effects on some of comorbidities that effect some people with autism, such as vitamin D metabolism and calcium homeostasis.

As is often the case the benefits mainly relate to the immune system.  This particular bacteria reduces C-reactive protein (CRP) which is a commonly used marked for inflammation.  It reduces “bad” cholesterol and it has an odd effect on vitamin D making it interesting for people with reduced bone density.

I have no idea if it will help some people with autism, but it is very easy to find out since this patented bacteria is available in several products, targeted at your heart, GI or bones but also lightening your wallet.

Given how quick the L.reuteri protectis showed effect (1 day) I only intend to trial NCIMB 30242 for a few days.

Lactobacillus reuteri NCIMB 30242 research

 The objective of this study was to evaluate the effects of probiotic bile salt hydrolase-active Lactobacillus reuteri NCIMB 30242 on cholesterol lowering, mechanism of action and gastrointestinal (GI) symptomatology in hypercholesterolemic adults.
Methods 127 subjects consumed either L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 or placebo capsules over a 9-week intervention period in a randomized controlled trial.
Results L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 capsules reduced LDL-cholesterol by 11.6% (P=0.001), total cholesterol by 9.1%, 
Conclusions L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 capsules should be considered as an adjunctive therapy for hypercholesterolemia and may be useful for promoting GI health.

L. reuteri NCIMB 30242 increased serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D by 14.9 nmol/L, or 25.5%, over the intervention period, which was a significant mean change relative to placebo of 17.1 nmol/L, or 22.4%, respectively (P = .003).


To our knowledge, this is the first report of increased circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D in response to oral probiotic supplementation.


Building healthy bones takes guts

"We know that inflammation in the gut can cause bone loss, though it's unclear exactly why," said lead author Laura McCabe, a professor in MSU's departments of Physiology and Radiology. "The neat thing we found is that a probiotic can enhance bone density."

In the study, the male mice showed a significant increase in bone density after four weeks of treatment. There was no such effect when the researchers repeated the experiment with female mice, an anomaly they're now investigating.

Lactobacillus Reuteri NCIMB 30350

One reader of this blog is already a fan of Lactobacillus Reuteri NCIMB 30350 which comes from BioAmicus in Canada.

BioAmicus have had feedback from other customers who tried it having read the press reports on Lactobacillus Reuteri and autism.

 They told me:-

“The parents who have seen improvement with BioAmicus Reuteri note eye contact, social activity, language use, as well as improved instruction comprehension.”

They plan to make their own autism clinical trial.


Lactobacillus Johnsonii NCIMB 30351

The next interesting bacteria I came across is Lactobacillus Johnsonii.  There numerous strains.

This bacteria has been shown to be behind why children who live in a house with pet dog are protected from asthma.  Numerous studies like the auto immune disease asthma with increased incidence of autism.

The bacteria is protective against development of another auto immune disease, Type 1 diabetes.

Lactobacillus Johnsonii appears to mediate the effectiveness of some common cancer drugs.

BioAmicus have a Lactobacillus Johnsonii bacteria called NCIMB 30351 usually given to babies.
As some readers have already highlighted Lactobacillus bacteria can be used to make all kinds of yoghurt, kefir etc.  So you can grow your own at home to keep the cost down.

Lactobacillus johnsonii research

Early-life exposure to dogs is protective against allergic disease development, and dog ownership is associated with a distinct milieu of house dust microbial exposures. Here, we show that mice exposed to dog-associated house dust are protected against airway allergen challenge. These animals exhibit reduced Th2 cytokine production, fewer activated T cells, and a distinct gut microbiome composition, highly enriched for Lactobacillus johnsonii, which itself can confer airway protection when orally supplemented as a single species. This study supports the possibility that host–environment interactions that govern allergic or infectious airway disease may be mediated, at least in part, by the impact of environmental exposures on the gastrointestinal microbiome composition and, by extension, its impact on the host immune response.


 Cyclophosphamide is one of several clinically important cancer drugs whose therapeutic efficacy is due in part to their ability to stimulate antitumor immune responses. Studying mouse models, we demonstrate that cyclophosphamide alters the composition of microbiota in the small intestine and induces the translocation of selected species of Gram-positive bacteria into secondary lymphoid organs. There, these bacteria stimulate the generation of a specific subset of “pathogenic” T helper 17 (pTH17) cells and memory TH1 immune responses. Tumor-bearing mice that were germ-free or that had been treated with antibiotics to kill Gram-positive bacteria showed a reduction in pTH17 responses, and their tumors were resistant to cyclophosphamide. Adoptive transfer of pTH17 cells partially restored the antitumor efficacy of cyclophosphamide. These results suggest that the gut microbiota help shape the anticancer immune response.

Although it is known that resident gut flora contribute to immune system function and homeostasis, their role in the progression of the autoimmune disease type 1 diabetes (T1D) is poorly understood. Comparison of stool samples isolated from Bio-Breeding rats, a classic model of T1D, shows that distinct bacterial populations reside in spontaneous Bio-Breeding diabetes-prone (BBDP) and Bio-Breeding diabetes-resistant animals. We have previously shown that the oral transfer of Lactobacillus johnsonii strain N6.2 (LjN6.2) from Bio-Breeding diabetes-resistant to BBDP rodents conferred T1D resistance to BBDP rodents, whereas Lactobacillus reuteri strain TD1 did not. In this study, we show that diabetes resistance in LjN6.2-fed BBDP rodents was correlated to a Th17 cell bias within the mesenteric lymph nodes. The Th17 bias was not observed in the non-gut–draining axillary lymph nodes, suggesting that the Th17 bias was because of immune system interactions with LjN6.2 within the mesenteric lymph node. LjN6.2 interactions with the immune system were observed in the spleens of diabetes-resistant, LjN6.2-fed BBDP rats, as they also possessed a Th17 bias in comparison with control or Lactobacillus reuteri strain TD1–fed rats. Using C57BL/6 mouse in vitro assays, we show that LjN6.2 directly mediated enhanced Th17 differentiation of lymphocytes in the presence of TCR stimulation, which required APCs. Finally, we show that footpad vaccination of NOD mice with LjN6.2-pulsed dendritic cells was sufficient to mediate a Th17 bias in vivo. Together, these data suggest an interesting paradigm whereby T1D induction can be circumvented by gut flora-mediated Th17 differentiation.


 Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG

This bacteria has numerous scientifically researched beneficial effects. Most recently it was shown to affect the expression of GABA receptors.  For some people with autism this might be beneficial. In particular it may reduce anxiety, since this was the effect noted in mouse research.

Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) is a strain of L. rhamnosus that was isolated in 1983 from the intestinal tract of a healthy human being; filed for patent on 17 April 1985, by Sherwood Gorbach and Barry Goldin, and the 'GG' derives from the first letters of their surnames. 

The patent refers to a strain of "L. acidophilus GG" with American Type Culture Collection (ATCC) accession number 53103; later reclassified as a strain of L. rhamnosus. The patent claims the L. rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) strain is acid- and bile-stable, has a great avidity for human intestinal mucosal cells, and produces lactic acid. Since the discovery of the L. rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) strain, it has been studied extensively on its various health benefits and currently L. rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) strain is the world's most studied probiotic bacterium with more than 800 scientific studies.
The genome sequence of Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) has been decoded.

Medical research and use

While Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (ATCC 53103) is able to survive the acid and bile of the stomach and intestine, is claimed to colonize the digestive tract, and to balance intestinal microflora, evidence suggests that Lactobacillus rhamnosus is likely a transient inhabitant, and not autochthonous. Regardless, it is considered a probiotic useful for treatment of various maladies, as it works on many levels. Most of the molecular mechanisms are not known, however.

Peanut allergy

Research is showing that L. rhamnosus as a probiotic could stop allergic reactions to peanuts in 80% of children.


Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG has been shown beneficial in the prevention of rotavirus diarrhea in children. The prevention and treatment of various types of diarrhea has been shown both in children and in adults.

Respiratory tract infections

L. rhamnosus GG may reduce the risk of obtaining respiratory tract infections in children that attend daycare.

Atopic dermatitis, eczema

Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG also has shown potential in treatment and primary prevention of atopic dermatitis, but the results of intervention trials have been mixed. A clinical trial with seven-year follow-up shows L. rhamnosus GG is useful in the prevention of atopic dermatitis in children at high risk of allergy.

Urogenital tract

The clinical health effects of L. rhamnosus GG have been widely studied. Both L. rhamnosus GG and L. rhamnosus GR-1 appear to protect the urogenital tract by excreting biosurfactants to inhibit the adhesion of vaginal and urinary pathogens.

Intestinal tract permeability

L. rhamnosus has been found to reduce intestinal permeability in children who suffer from irritable bowel syndrome, and it also has been found to counter alcohol-related intestinal permeability.

Gastrointestinal carriage of VRE

In 2005, L. rhamnosus GG was first used successfully to treat gastrointestinal carriage of vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus (VRE) in renal patients.


Research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on August 29, 2011 reported this bacterium may have an effect on GABA neurotransmitter receptors. Mice who were fed L. rhamnosus JB-1 had less anxiety and had different levels of a brain-chemical sensor and stress hormones.

This paper was mentioned previously in this blog

There is increasing, but largely indirect, evidence pointing to an effect of commensal gut microbiota on the central nervous system (CNS). However, it is unknown whether lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacillus rhamnosus could have a direct effect on neurotransmitter receptors in the CNS in normal, healthy animals. GABA is the main CNS inhibitory neurotransmitter and is significantly involved in regulating many physiological and psychological processes. Alterations in central GABA receptor expression are implicated in the pathogenesis of anxiety and depression, which are highly comorbid with functional bowel disorders. In this work, we show that chronic treatment with L. rhamnosus (JB-1) induced region-dependent alterations in GABAB1b mRNA in the brain with increases in cortical regions (cingulate and prelimbic) and concomitant reductions in expression in the hippocampus, amygdala, and locus coeruleus, in comparison with control-fed mice. In addition, L. rhamnosus (JB-1) reduced GABAAα2 mRNA expression in the prefrontal cortex and amygdala, but increased GABAAα2 in the hippocampus. Importantly, L. rhamnosus (JB-1) reduced stress-induced corticosterone and anxiety- and depression-related behavior. Moreover, the neurochemical and behavioral effects were not found in vagotomized mice, identifying the vagus as a major modulatory constitutive communication pathway between the bacteria exposed to the gut and the brain. Together, these findings highlight the important role of bacteria in the bidirectional communication of the gut–brain axis and suggest that certain organisms may prove to be useful therapeutic adjuncts in stress-related disorders such as anxiety and depression.

Weight loss

Research published in the British Journal of Nutrition in 2013 suggests that Lactobacillus rhamnosus CGMCC 1.3724 may increase weight loss in women who are dieting. The research was initiated after several studies showed that the gut bacteria in obese individuals differs significantly from those in thin people. Women in the study lost nearly twice the weight that the placebo group lost. No difference was observed in men, however.


The use of L. rhamnosus GG for probiotic therapy has been linked with very rare cases of sepsis in certain risk groups, primarily those with a weakened immune system and infants. Ingestion of L. rhamnosus GG is, nevertheless, considered to be safe, and data from Finland show a significant growth in the consumption of L. rhamnosus GG at the population level has not led to an increase in the number of Lactobacillus bacteraemia cases.

Probiotic Lactobacillus Probiotic rhamnosus downregulates FCER1 and HRH4 expressionin human mast cells


AIM: To investigate the effects of four probiotic bacteria and their combination on human mast cell gene expression using microarray analysis.
METHODS: Human peripheral-blood-derived mast cells were stimulated with Lactobacillus rhamnosus (L. rhamnosus) GG (LGG®), L. rhamnosus Lc705 (Lc705), Propionibacterium freudenreichii ssp. shermanii JS (PJS) and Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis Bb12 (Bb12) and their combination for 3 or 24 h, and were subjected to global microarray analysis using an Affymetrix GeneChip® Human Genome U133 Plus 2.0 Array. The gene expression differences between unstimulated and bacteria-stimulated samples were further analyzed with GOrilla Gene Enrichment Analysis and Visualization Tool and MeV Multiexperiment Viewer-tool.
RESULTS: LGG and Lc705 were observed to suppress genes that encoded allergy-related high-affinity IgE receptor subunits α and γ (FCER1A and FCER1G, respectively) and histamine H4 receptor. LGG, Lc705 and the combination of four probiotics had the strongest effect on the expression of genes involved in mast cell immune system regulation, and on several genes that encoded proteins with a pro-inflammatory impact, such as interleukin (IL)-8 and tumour necrosis factor alpha. Also genes that encoded proteins with anti-inflammatory functions, such as IL-10, were upregulated.
CONCLUSION: Certain probiotic bacteria might diminish mast cell allergy-related activation by downregulation of the expression of high-affinity IgE and histamine receptor genes, and by inducing a pro-inflammatory response.

Bifidobacterium Infantis 35624 

Bifidobacterium infantis 35624  is marketed in the US by Proctor & Gamble, while in Europe it is sold by the Irish developer.

It is well researched and does have effects beyond the gut.

Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 modulates host inflammatory processes beyond the gut

Certain therapeutic microbes, including Bifidobacteria infantis (B. infantis) 35624 exert beneficial immunoregulatory effects by mimicking commensal-immune interactions; however, the value of these effects in patients with non-gastrointestinal inflammatory conditions remains unclear. In this study, we assessed the impact of oral administration of B. infantis 35624, for 6‒8 weeks on inflammatory biomarker and plasma cytokine levels in patients with ulcerative colitis (UC) (n = 22), chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) (n = 48) and psoriasis (n = 26) in three separate randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled interventions. Additionally, the effect of B. infantis 35624 on immunological biomarkers in healthy subjects (n = 22) was assessed. At baseline, both gastrointestinal (UC) and non-gastrointestinal (CFS and psoriasis) patients had significantly increased plasma levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) and the pro-inflammatory cytokines tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) and interleukin-6 (IL-6) compared with healthy volunteers. B. infantis 35624 feeding resulted in reduced plasma CRP levels in all three inflammatory disorders compared with placebo. Interestingly, plasma TNF-α was reduced in CFS and psoriasis while IL-6 was reduced in UC and CFS. Furthermore, in healthy subjects, LPS-stimulated TNF-α and IL-6 secretion by peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) was significantly reduced in the B. infantis 35624-treated groups compared with placebo following eight weeks of feeding. These results demonstrate the ability of this microbe to reduce systemic pro-inflammatory biomarkers in both gastrointestinal and non-gastrointestinal conditions. In conclusion, these data show that the immunomodulatory effects of the microbiota in humans are not limited to the mucosal immune system but extend to the systemic immune system.

The research highlighted by Proctor & Gamble is here:-

The product is sold as Alflorex in Europe and Align in the US.


One big issue with all probiotics is just how potent they are when you actually consume them, rather than when they are manufactured.

Most people are taking probiotics for very general reasons, but people with IBS/IBD are a group who have very specific problems.  VSL#3 and Viviomixx do seem to be the probiotics of choice among those with IBS/IBD.

For allergy and atopic dermatitis some people clearly benefit from specific probiotics such as Bifidobacterium lactis BB-12 and Lactobacillus GG, but not all people respond.

Lowering cholesterol by probiotic is very easy to verify, so I presume it really must work in some cases.

Generally reducing colic, reflux, gas etc. in babies is a claim made for numerous probiotics.

You could spend a vast amount of money on probiotics for autism and it really is only worth using one(s) that have a genuine impact.

It would be useful to collect some data on what dosage is required when somebody actually does respond behaviourally to a probiotic.  Thanks to Alli and other readers I think we have the data on Biogaia products.

So far only one reader has given feedback on Lactobacillus Reuteri NCIMB 30350 (Bioamicus), but it was positive. The people at BioAmicus in Canada are very interested to know if their products are effective in some autism.

There are many people in the US using Culturelle for kids with autism, but I did not see any rave reviews.  Probably it is used for GI problems rather than to improve autism itself.

It does depend a lot where you live, how easy it is to access specific probiotics at a reasonable price.  Some are much cheaper in the US and some cheaper in Europe.

My current list of potentially interesting probiotics is:-

I really never expected to be writing about the merits of probiotics. It was a big surprise to learn that Miyiari 588 is put in animal feed to improve immune health via increasing the SCFA (short chained fatty acid) butyric acid.  Butyric acid is relevant to autism.  It was a bigger surprise to see L.reuteri Protectis reduce my son’s troublesome pollen allergy and changed the colour of his nose.

It is worthwhile doing some experimentation to see what, if anything, actually is helpful.

There are sound reasons why some people with autism may respond to one of the above bacteria.  As of now though, Biogaia is the probiotic of choice to try first, since many people with autism respond well.

All positive and negative feedback on these, or any other probiotic bacteria is very welcome.


  1. Hi Peter and Tyler, as my son shows anxiety and hyperexitability I decided to try Memantine for a week. But, he had a bad reaction.As it is a glutamate blocker I asumed that it would lower his anxiety, hyperactivity, and stimming, on the contrary not only he was more hiperactive but also new tics appeared. My question is why valproate and l rhamnosus gg are efective in my son, they work on gaba and Memantine that is a glutamate blocker and should be better, is worse. Valentina

    1. Just had shoulder surgery today and right arm is numb all the way down to hand and I am in a sling so very hard to type. Took 20 minutes to dig out of my history since I did not have this paper bookmarked, but it should maybe answer your question especially in the discussion section.

      I think NMDA antagonism is very complicated and if anything you would want a super low dose if you go that route. NMDA antagonism is thought to be one of the primary effects of hallucinogens which as a general rule decouple global brain integration, rather than enhance it. In this paper it discusses why NMDA receptor antagonism might be very dangerous for epilepsy prone populations due to a novel mechanism they discovered and suggested the GABA or GABA modulatory route (benzos) might be a better approach.

      Wish me luck when the nerve block wears off on my arm. This it is the grim choice of insane pain or very addictive opioid pain killers which I have read maybe 50+ papers now on (opioids and drug addiction) which is enough to scare me away from taking them at just above all costs.

    2. Also this paper (link to paper is in press release) may also address your question:

      In effect, broad acting NMDA antagonists may have beneficial effects in hyperexcited sensory areas, but cause prefrontal cortex dysfunction as well. In other words, for NMDA antagonism to work well, the drug or therapy would need to be selective and spare the prefrontal cortex.

      I have a therapy/invention I have been working on for several years now that can do just this. Your best option right now would probably be Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation of sensory areas using the cTBS protocol which is thought to dampen NMDA receptors specifically. There are some doctors that offer TMS services for depression, but you probably can't find them in the phone book. You would need to convince them to do cTBS TMS (that is assuming their tech is even capable of this stimulation) on the back of the head (visual cortex) as a start to see if it helps as other sensory areas in the brain (touch, taste, sound) are harder to locate and hit effectively with TMS due to their size, shape, and spread which can vary quite a bit from person to person.

      To my knowledge nobody has tried this with autism yet (as this is my idea based on other success with stuff I can't delve into detail right now) as almost all the studies use 1hz stimulation of the Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex (DLPFC) in the hopes of increasing inhibitory tone. Cassanova I think is the researcher with the most prominence in this area if you want to look him up.

    3. Valentina, when you say rhamnosus gg is effective in your son, can you give some details please. What dose do you use, how long did it take to show effect and exactly what was the behavioral effect.

      In mouse studies rhamnosus gg modifies the sub-unit expression of GABAa receptors. This is also done by female hormones and this looks like why RG's daughter tends to have seizures at exactly the same time each month. In stead of seizures some people have anxiety.

      Valproate has numerous actions, not just on GABA, so it may be helpful for entirely different reasons.

      Memantine affects NMDA receptors and in some cases an NMDA dysfunction can be treated via GABA receptors. We saw a mouse model that used GABAb modulator baclofen to do this. But GABAa and GABAb are extremely complex and we actually want to subtly change their effect, This is done by changing the expression of the sub-units, or modifying the response of a particular sub-unit. We are doing this blind, because for a particular person we do not actually know what their dysfunction is. But we know that in some people you can modify the sub-units to reduce anxiety and to increase cognitive function.

      If in your son rhamnosus gg can modify the GABAa subunits to reduce anxiety that is a very important finding.

    4. Peter, I started with rhamnosus in my son,4 years ago, when probiotics started to sound interesting. At that time, he experimented an incredible effect, cognitive, motor, more engaged in activities, much less stimming, no tics . After a month, I suspendend, was an expensive probiotic and I was confused with so many things to try, and leave it, thought that perhaps the improvment was inherited to my son's development. Mistake. Now, 4 yearse later, after have tried Bio Gaia gastrus and Protectis with bad effects, I remembered rhamnosus, the probiotic is Bacilor, but the strain is L35, very close to GG, and the improvement was remarkable. Added to valproate is the only thing that has worked, I can't believe it yet, you know that almost nothing works in my son. And after the horrible experience with Memantine, saw in my son a scary face of hallucination, now understand what Tyler says. Give 1500 mg per sachet, each day. But you can start with 750 mg. He has been taking it for 2 weeks.Valentina

    5. Valentina, your probiotic is very interesting. It can be both anti-inflammatory or pro-inflammatory, depending on the dose. There is a lot of research on this French probiotic.

      Dose-Dependent Immunomodulation of Human Dendritic Cells by the Probiotic Lactobacillus rhamnosus Lcr35

      "The probiotic L. rhamnosus Lcr35 therefore induce a dose-dependent immunomodulation of human DCs leading, at high doses, to the semi-maturation of the cells and to a strong pro-inflammatory effect"

      I think that your son likely has a different immune status to those who respond to Biogaia. You might note a different effect at higher/lower doses.

      This probiotic is very common in France, as Bacilor. In the US it used in Zarbee's probiotics.

    6. Yes,it is French, Probionov Lab, I think a safe dose is 1500 mg a day, I don't dare to up the dose, for the proinflammatory effect, what do you think?Valentina

    7. Valentina, since this is the only intervention, other than valproate that helps, it would be worth trying the higher suggested doses.

      "4.2. Posologie et mode d'administration


      Réservé à l'enfant de plus de 2 ans (voir rubrique 4.4).
      1 à 4 sachet-doses par jour.

      It looks like the recommended dose for a small child is up to 6g; you are at 1.5g. This might well get expensive long term, but you might as well see if the beneficial effect increases.

      As has been pointed out all the "L." type probiotics can be grown at home in milk to make yoghurt, so need not be expensive.

    8. Ok, I can get it with 35% discount as my mother's husband is general practitioner and he won't object to prescribe it in this case! So,I will up the dose.Valentina

  2. Providence brought me here today Peter! Wonderful article that has given me some more food for thought. Probiotics are a popular area of interest in research now in US, thank goodness. Unfortunately many strains I have read about in studies that have positive effects in autism are not available to the public, such as b. fragilis and l. rhamnosus JB-1. Have you found any research or info on these two, Peter?

    Sadly sensory issues and food allergies in autism also limit what food/diet our kids take in, which in turn can make or break a probiotic's effectiveness. Our once awesome Klaire Therbiotic has just been shelved as we are going to have to switch to a D-Lactate free probiotic since my son's penchant for eating cheese pizza ONLY for lunch for the past month has caused symptoms of D lactate acidosis to surface. Took me a while to figure this one out, I'd gotten a little too comfy in our routine. Back to square one, and back to reading your blog daily Peter. :)

    1. MKate, there is plenty of research but not that can applied. When I looked at b.fragilis I ended up at Miyari 588 which looks like it will do something very similar.

  3. My daughter is just finishing a course of antibiotics for hpylori
    Would anyone suggest a probiotic that could be used to balance out her good bacteria I do have a bootle of theralac would that do thank you

  4. Just to leave a reference regarding our results with probiotics so far (they are listed in the sequence we have used):

    Boulardii - 1 capsule/day as needed for GI symptoms. Ok for GI issues, no effect on behaviour.

    Bifidum (from SISU capsules and chewable tablets) - 1 capsule or tablet/1 or 2 days. Good for GI, seems to help a tiny bit with hiperactivity, but I have not tried larger doses.

    L. Reuteri (Biogaia Protectis) - 5 drops/day, 2 days only. This was the moment I realised probiotics can REALY affect autism because my son went from 6 to 9 (if autism spectrum was a scale from 0 to 10). It was about 7 days for symtoms to improve, about 10 to go back to baseline, but toilet training was lost during this time and we had to restart from scratch. (This I think was partly loss of muscle control and partly embracing old habits).

    Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG (Culturelle - Kids packets) - 1 sachet / 2 days - seemed to help overall, a very balanced state regarding behaviour and emotions, no hyperactivity at all. Changed to 1/day, permanent signs of cold and slowly developed red skin with minuscule sores around mouth and nose. I've suspended the use but its taking a long time to clear. Behavioural effect lost but not worse than baseline.

    It seems to me some strands can be positive, but he has somme vulnerabilities.
    I believe he is like someone with asthma that is prone to get colds frequently, so a mixture of immune vulnerability and exacerbated reactions, but in his case affecting GI.

    I'm considering to try Jhonsonii and Myari eventually.


    1. Jane, i teresting - my son has same reaction to culturelle with a red line appearing above upper lip and low grade fever (which I take as a good sign becuase he never gets sick or has fevers) He also does well with S. Boull. The B. Infantis strain in the product Align is another great one for him. I just learned Culutrelle stabilizes mast cell - wondering if I should bump up the dose and push through what seems to be immune shifting reaction.

    2. please excuse typos - i have the hardest time commenting on the blog - each time i go back to correct errors, it freezes up and i cannot even cut and paste the comment once i refresh the screen, i have to start all over. it makes commenting a tad frustrating and time consuming - but not meaning to complain because i am so appreciative of the blog! i will just have to forgo editing of i want my comment to go theough. Peter, i wish you had a facebook group.

    3. Tanya and Peter, today I've found that in veterinary research there are some references that Lactobacillus Rhamnosus in low profilatic dose protects from pathogenic bacteria in the GI tract and has positive immunomodulatory effect, but at high doses it rises IL-17 and has strong inflammatory effect, negating the benefits of profilatic use.

      This could explain the effect I've seen with my kid, just the threshold for him was kind of low.

      Maybe in combination with something to keep IL-17 in check we can go with higher doses and get more of its benefits?



    4. Looks like broccoli sprouts inhibit IL17. hmmm now I wonder if I had been giving my son the srpouts he would have tolerated the BioGaia Gastrus and Protectis.

    5. This is interesting!
      We don't use sprouts either but this is a good reason to try again.

    6. Jane please keep me posted on how your son does with lactobacillus GG. we tried this one many many yrs ago as this is one that the DAN docs recommended back in the day - dug out my old journals and see he wasn't doing well when trying it then but didn't figure it could actually be causing an infection type of reaction. Now that i have given smaller amts for a few days in a row, pretty sure the red patch is infection driven - he is acting like he does when bad bacteria is high. Bad reaction to the l. reuteri too. Maybe it's best for my son to stick with bifido strains... something about the lactobaccilus. anyway, please keep me posted because it seems our boys have a similar immune reaction. thanks!

    7. Peter and Jane:
      Jane, just curious if you know if your son has mthfr mutation - specifically the a1298c snp? have you ever tried the probiotic strain bifido BB536? my son is homozygous for this mthfr snp - the is the one with bh4 lacking - bh4 needed to convert ammonia . the bifido bb536 inhibits the growth of bacteria strains that produce ammonia. Once the effects from the culturelle clear out, and we get back to our normal, I will be giving this one a try. Peter, maybe this strain warrants adding to your list - if not for your son, for your readers? Appears to be a lot of research on it.

    8. to be precise: it is Bifido Longum BB536 - research from japanese scientists - company proprietary strain by Morinaga. sold under brand name Quality of Life. I have some info on this strain via Alison Vickery that it also stabilizes mast cells and reduces food allergy reactions.

    9. Thanks Tanya, let us know if BB536 helps.

    10. Here is the paper on BB536 allergies and mast cells etc:

      Suppressive effects of Bifidobacterium longum on the production of Th2-attracting chemokines induced with T cell–antigen-presenting cell interactions

      The ammonia one is here:-

      Inhibitory Effects of Bifidobacterium longum BB536 on Harmful Intestinal Bacteria

    11. thank you Peter.... Here is a paper on the safety of certain probitic species. Very enlightening - so it's more than just making sure we aren't using a histamine raising species (in our histamine/mast cell case). According to this paper, there are no report of bacteria infection or sepsis with the bifido strains. Those have been the only strains not to cause problems for my son.

    12. Tanya, thanks for the info you shared, and sorry for taking so long to answer.
      I agree that it seems our kids have some similar reactions and possibly have similar immune profile.
      I do not have however much information regarding his immune system and genetics. We did microarray, with no findings, but we haven't performed further genetic tests yet.
      When tested, CRP was kind of high but laboratory reference range only considers CRP regarding heart risk, so it was considered normal.

      Regarding probiotics, my son does well with this mix from Sisu that he takes as chewable tablets, but not remarkable well as he did for a while with LGG from Culturelle:
      Bifidobacterium infantis (M-63)...1 Billion cfu*
      Lactobacillus acidophilus (HA-122)...500 Million cfu*
      Lactobacillus rhamnosus (HA-111)...500 Million cfu

      As you can see besides bifido it also contains a strain of rhamnosus, Culturelle contains another strain and 5 Billion CFU, so the dose way higher.

      I try to take hearth in the fact that good or bad we are getting a response with the probiotics, so at least I know we are dealing with a relevant aspect of his health.

      For now, since we stopped LGG, he is getting absurdly hyper and is not sleeping much. But the good humour and the interest in his activities is there, so mommy is tired but he seems fine.

      I'll look more closely into the info you sent, and try to map better his reactions.



    13. Thanks so much for sharing Jane. My son ended up having a bad reaction to culturelle after a couple of doses - I actually think the red patch rash above his upper lip is a sign of infection (at first Imwas wondering if it was a herpes type rash - maybe a viral flare) -!I think he was reacting to the strain. I am going to be sticking with the bifido strains for now. I think my son has the autoimmune profile version of autism and from what I am reading the bifido strains are the safest - least likely to cause side effects of infection for those wit weaker immune system... So much to learn about microbes...

  5. Hello Peter,

    I have ordered Microbiome with l.reuteri strain NCIMB 30242, helpfully suggested by Mkate. On looking up its possible beneficial effects, lowering of cholesterol came up as a significant one. With my son's cholesterol levels, which are on the lower end of the normal range, would you think it advisable for me to try it out.

    I have not started dosing him on bioamicus but will let you know the results as soon as I do so.

    As for bumetanide, we are definitely seeing something, 21 days into it, though the visual sensory issues which popped up when we started bumetanide are not ready to part company. I am supplementing him with small quantities of potassium now and then.

    I have had such phases of cognitive jumps in the past also but if we get an extended period of improvements that we are witnessing right now, we are definitely onto something.

    Will spare you the details for now.


  6. Good luck Tyler. At least trial some melatonin for pain and sleep.
    It worked very well with our postsurgery outcome.

  7. Lactobacillus GG (Culturelle) stabilizes mast cells

    1. Peter and Tanya,
      from the article Tanya mentions "CONCLUSION: Certain probiotic bacteria might diminish mast cell allergy-related activation by downregulation of the expression of high-affinity IgE and histamine receptor genes, and by inducing a pro-inflammatory response."

      It seems a mechanism similar to Biogaia Gastrus? Is it?

      If so it can work well for those who benefit from L.Reuteri, but those that don't must be careful.
      Your thoughts?



    2. Jane, it looks like the same probiotic can be both pro and anti-inflammatory depending on the dose. Some peeople may indeed benefit from the pro-inflammatory response.

      Since we can never understand the science 100% and we do not know the immune status of our children, I think it wise to just try small doses of the small number of available bacteria. If there is no negative reaction, then try a higher dose.

      Ultimately I think the people who respond negatively to Biogaia Protectis may find they respond well to the same different bacteria. Note that Valentina saw a negative response to Biogaia, but a very positive response to L. rhamnosus Lcr35.

      Undoubtedly there are more than two groups for immune status, but looking at the feedback from others may help point you in a useful direction.

    3. Peter I think my son benefits from the probiotics other effects, but the inflammatory response is an issue.

      At least now I can plan the trials with this in mind.

      Low dose LGG is already a big win, but I'll get LCR35, give it a try and see if it works as well.



    4. "L. rhamnosus enhances macrophage viability for herpes (HSV-1) elimination" . will share link for this exceprt in another post because whenever i try to cut and post or correct typo, this comment box freezes up on me and i have to start all over.... So Jane, this is what I was wondering was happening with the mouth rashes that comes after giving LGG bc isn't this a sign of where herpes virus manifests? I think elimination is a good thing so wondering if bumping up the dose pushes it out - but just have something like broccoli sprouts on board if the high dose elicits a th17 inflammatory reaction?



    6. A red line around the mouth could also be indicative of an allergic response.. a histamine related one or dehydration due to sudden change in internal body mileu although I am sure you must have already considered that possibility. Herpes virus does not usually manifest as a red line but as sores if I remember correctly. We have had such red lines or a mild rash when I started him on certain homeopathic medicines which disappear in a day or two and in most cases such rashes or lines in homeopathy mean treatment is working.

    7. good point kritika. maybe line is not the right description - it's more like a little patch. it isn't an allergic type reaction i don't think because i have plenty of those with my son and it is not like this. He also has felt a little warm as if low grade fever, and a bit better behavior. i agree wit your observation about these signs in homeopathy - which is why I was thinking this might be a good thing.

    8. I've never seen herpes like that... it looked more like a light eczema? A red region that looking very closely we could see was composed of tiny red dots.
      It started near mouth and nose but did not seem to affect them.
      After I stopped with the supplement it started slowly improving. After reading about the possible inflammation I gave half dose of claritin + ibuprofen and the red is gone and he seems 100% back to normal, only the skin is dry and should take a few days to renew.

      I don't know if it was a virus clearing, but it was starting to affect sleep, appetite and daily routine. I will wait a few days and start again with the low dose.
      He was doing really well with it.

  8. Tyler, thankyou for all!! I appreciate your effort to write, very valuable, because you helped me a lot with your post. Could experience all what you say by first hand. Memantine was a nightmare to me, at least, I gave him his valproate at the same time,and nothing worse happened. Wish you a great recovery. Valentina

  9. Here is a series of papers (at bottom of press release) that were released today which discuss the intersection of various species of bacteria with various pathogens yielding different levels and ratios of cytokines:

  10. According to Peter saying "too much of good bacteria and they become bad bacteria" I am under the impression that I might have missed the benefit of other priobiotics I trialled, apart from Biogaia, for example VSL#3 and Lactogyn (Lrhamnosus GR1+Lreuteri RC14), due to huge amount of good bacteria in a single dose.
    I think Biogaia's dose architecture is more reasonable and you can easily up the dose gradually to find the optimum.
    My son has a permanent rhinitis which Biogaia Gastrus failed to treat. I think there has been a discussion about the anti-inflammatory strain ATCC PTA 6475 and its histamine release mechanism which doesn't seem to work in favour for some. So I switched to the single DSM 17938 baby drops to check what happens without the histamine mechanism before trialling other probiotics.
    I bought Normia 1g. bags(LRGG+BB12) which I think it's a huge dose for my son. I'll devide it to two or three doses, although it's "dirty" and maybe not safe to do, and use it myself first.

    1. Petra, This information is from Alison Vickery who researches mast cell/histamine issues - she has found these strains beneficial for rhinitis:
      lactobaccillus acidophilus NCFM
      Bifido lactis BI-04
      L. rhamnous GG (culturelle brand in the US)
      Lactobaccilllus gasseri TMC0356

    2. Maybe this is splitting hairs - but had a thought about the BioGaia drops - they are in MCT oil - which inhibits one of the cyto P450 enzymes cyp2E1. so if you have mutations on that gene it could be that ingredient and not so much the bacteria causing a negative reaction?

    3. Thank you Tanya, very helpful information. I don't know what mutations my son has, so before I find out I have to trial it.

  11. Petra,

    Every day I take out bioamicus drops and put them back, waiting for the right day. It's almost like using recombinant DNA technology on our kids..hopefully effects are reversible.

    1. Kritika,
      After I had taken 6 Lreuteri baby drops, I read your comment and gave me the greatest laugh, thank you.
      You might want to have some yourself first.
      Fortunately my husband and son got used to my daily getting things out of my cabinet and putting things back.
      After all, recently my husband was found with very high liver enzymes and thanks to my cabinet in less than two months his enzymes went back to normal.

  12. Peter, are you still doing the Miyairi ? How do you dose the Protectis and the Miyairi, are you keeping them apart? Are you currently trialling any other probiotics?

    My husband is taking the BioGaia Gastrus at 5 capsules a day, per Alli's schedule, and would like to take the Miyairi as well? He likes the Miyairi for GI issues and was wondering if the two could be combined? He also likes to take Culturelle as needed (which is often). Appreciate your recommendations.

    1. RG, we give a small dose of Miyairi, I never used the large doses suggested on the label, but did try sodium butyrate, which achieves the same thing. We see now trying Alflorex (Align). I think you can give both at the same time.

      Why does your husband need the high dose Gastrus? If he has GI problems and your daughter responds to verapamil, he may himself have a calcium channelopathy. If so 20mg of verapamil two times a day may solve the problem.

    2. His thyroid antibodies have been very high, although he is euthyroid. The endocrinologist has put him on Synthroid which does make him feel better.

      Crestor, Biogaia Gastrus and Synthroid have been very good for him. He was out of town on work and ran out of Crestor for a few days, and mentioned that it makes a big difference. His brain just feels clearer and bright on it.

    3. RG, Crestor is a hydrophilic statin, so it does not cross the blood brain barrier as well as a lipophilic statin (simvastatin, atorvastatin). So if your husband wants a "brain effect" he might feel even better with the other type of statin.

      If he has early Hashimoto's you might want to keep a lookout for pre-diabetes, which we saw you can prevent becoming type 2 diabetes.

    4. Hi Peter,

      Several years ago he tried Lipitor and it had a weird effect. His fingers began trembling and he suddenly began talking to himself. All this went away soon after he stopped it. He stayed away from statins after that until two years ago when he began having chest pains and the cardiologist put him on Crestor 20mg. Last year, he had a quadruple bypass. He has been diabetic for about 4 years now with his h1bac at 6. He is on Metformin.

      Mentally he does best on a low carb higher fat diet, but has had to go to the ER twice with gi issues.

    5. RG, maybe ask his cardiologist if he can take verapamil, it will lower blood pressure but might help in other ways, including protecting remaining beta cells that produce insulin.

  13. Peter, probiotics can enhance mineral absorption, shown dysfunctional in autism.
    Do you think better zinc absorption after probiotic treatment could be at least one of the anti-inflammatory pathways?
    I gave a small amount of Normia yesterday and repeated today and saw amelioration of rhinitis symptoms, thus I think Bumetanide and LDClonazepam work optimally.
    I have to buy Normia baby drops to have better control over the dose as with the bags I can only roughly know how much I give.

    1. I did start writing a post about zinc. There is something strange going on with zinc. Rather like with chloride (CL-) the problem is not too much or too little, but it may be in the wrong place. This was covered in some research from Taiwan and they suggested a treatment, but it has possible side effects. There was some Australian research that was a bit simplistic that suggested just consuming more zinc.

      I think some probiotics can make allergy worse, the red patches appearing above the upper lip. Is this a short term issue, or a reason to abort you trial? All I know is that Biogaia Protectis makes this type of red patch disappear for us. So I think some probiotics may have opposing effects and so some care is needed to decide what, if anything, is worth continuing with.

    2. Something interesting happened with zinc here. For years my daughter has had low zinc on tests. Supplementation did nothing, even when I went up to 40mg. After a few months of Verapamil, when I ran a test, her zinc was normal! I tested it again early this year, and it was still normal. The second time was without zinc supplementation.

  14. I started with Protectis to treat rhinitis but I was so tempted to use LR-GG for both inflammation and fear/anxiety like symptoms that I changed the plan.
    This is only my third day and I haven't seen any signs of allergy in the upper lip, or anywhere.
    I give low dose because it is supposed to affect Gaba and we should need a slight shift.
    So far I don't have negative reactions, maybe positive, but this can't be established as I don't know long term effect.
    I mentioned zinc for several reasons that I saw being connected with my son's pathological profile. Allergic rhinitis sometimes goes together with NAFLD and sleeping apnea and also saw that zinc-copper abnormalitis could lead to them. Probiotics help with mineral absorption which might be better than supplements.
    What's more my researcher doctor is in favour of low dose zinc supplementation, 11mg/d.,an idea that haven't implemmented yet.

    1. Petra, while I was giving 1 sachet of Culturelle every 2 days my son had no visible sign of allergy.
      Just when I changed to 1 sachet daily (as per manufacturer recommended dosing) that the red strip started to show, and we lost the behavioural/emotional benefits.

      While there was no sign of allergy my son was doing extremely well with LGG, very calm, centered and responsive.


    2. Jane, my dose is quite low, from 1g bag I take less than 1/3 which also has BB12 and give it daily for three days.
      Rhinitis symptoms are gone but he started feeling itchy on his leg. It's not the first time that he feels itchy there, but I think LGG may have brought it back.
      During the first two days he seemed normal, as if he was independent within the rules, but yesterday, together with the itching we saw that he got somehow agitated but still acting quite normal.
      I tried to help with the itching feeling by rubbing some castor oil on.
      I don't know what to say, LGG is supposed to treat atopic eczema, dermatitis etc.
      There may be a fight between good bacteria and IgE response.
      Maybe it's a coincidence, but I remember when I started with Biogaia we had had a serious inflammation before he got stabilized with it.
      He was given antibiotics and I was put on the dilemma whether to give Biogaia or not, because I had read Alli saying that in case of fever one should stop.
      This was solved by the reasonable decision that when on antibiotics you take probiotics. It took some time before recovering.
      Now, as I don't want to lose behavioural benefits, I am thinking of:
      1. Dosing every other day.
      2. Combine it with half dose L reuteri.
      3. Treat the leg allergy with castor oil, Zyrtec or Verapamil.

  15. Hi Mkate,

    I have received l reuteri NCIMB 30242.. CFU is 3.5 billion but with a warning on not to be used for those under 18.

    I was trying to track your message on Microbiome but cannot find it..

    How has your experience gone? I have started my son on low dose bioamicus reuteri and he did not show any adverse reaction so will go for the full dose.

    Do share your observations..i was wondering about cholesterol lowering effects of this particular strain, the one in Microbiome. And these probiotics are pretty expensive. Next in line would be l.rhamnosus GG which I have been wanting to trial for a while..however lately my intuition has been betraying me. But I ended up consoling myself that what does not work on our child might also be one step closer to finding what might work..even if it means gambling a fortune on creatures so small that they are 'invisible to the naked eye'. How things have come a full circle.

    Do keep communicating.

    1. Hello Peter,

      When I started giving NAC to my son, it gave him a certain kind of lift..more focus but the side effects of stomach discomfort confounded the effects. Next was bumetanide and it took over from where nac treatment had left us. Cognitive lift, awareness about needs, assertive ness which over time deteriorated into too much of demanding behaviour and irritability a few days back. When I visited my family on Diwali, which was on 30th Oct, they could see a pleasing change..they did not know about bumetanide. But few days later he started really acting out, wanting to be played songs on the mobile, demanding incessant attention, wanting to go out (he hung his bag on his shoulders and pushed me towards the main gate saying 'go'. Note the purposefullness). Any refusal was met with whining, irritability, pinching. It was only for a few days but my husband verbalized what I too was feeling..if he is going to be like this what will be do.

      Peter, I do think it was a behaviour similar to what Christine noted in her son as anxiety.
      .in my son it came out as terribly demanding antics and unhsppiness on needs not being met.

      His sensory sensitivities continued, some days better some days worse and potassium did nothing though I will have to get his levels reassessed.

      His increase in sustained focus was best expressed in physical activities..he really seem to be enjoying prolonged physical activities and was almost working out at the gym. This was a huge perceptible change nobody could miss. He started carrying out some chores unprompted like dumping dirty clothes in the laundry basket or wiping bathroom floor after bathing.

      Now Peter, usually I enjoy when the school is off, just relaxing with my son though do have to keep on running after him to stop him from getting into trouble. But this Monday when his regular school and therapy center announced a holiday due to severe pollution in the city I started getting panicky at the thought of having to spend two days with this irritable miserable child. I understood why mothers complain about Sundays and inability to engage the child.

      But Monday was my day two on five drops bioamicus reuteri and thank god for it. He was my sweet pleasant loving child again. Relaxed, amiable, naughty but smiling away a demand not met or a rebuke instead of the whining. And yesterday we did half an hour of school work without any crying or holding onto his etection..he did run away twice but that is OK. And he was actually copying some precursive letters which i had not taught him. A very good session.

      Today was day three..same afectionate demeanour. I am feeling that bioamicus has taken away the negative effects associated with bumetanide while conserving the cognitive gains. Or probably we are having those good days.

      Ultimately I feel that even if I get fifteen to twenty such good days in a month, it can take my son far. I remember Naviaux had once opined that if we could target drug therapy during critical periods in a child's development we could hugely mitigate possible side effects. Isolating those critical periods is a different ball game together.

      So, in summary, l. Reuteri, seems to be working for my son unless it's divine intervention that replaced my son's gloomy mood with all the sunshine and brightness.

      I have to see how he does with the higher dosage.

    2. Kritika, that is great that L. Reuteri helps.

      I have also considered that many people might prefer not to treat autism, because looking after a more aware/present person with autism can indeed be harder at least in the short term.

      I think after a child gets used to having increased cognition, things likely do settle down.

      I also think that probiotics that are going to help, will do immediately and there is no point enduring a negative reaction in the hope that at the end of it will be something great.

    3. Peter,

      I wanted to add that both my son and myself (yes I took that bacteria floating in oil) experienced a little burping..I had forgotten what burping felt like and my son also did not do any after stopping bring breastfed. So the behavioural improvement in my son could right now be just what l.reuteri was initially meant for..aiding digestion. Even if that is's wonderful.

      I would request you to give a thought on why bumetanide might result in anxiety or irritability in some. Could Christine be right that increased awareness might lead to anxiety prone behaviour or frustration.

  16. Peter and all, to add a little bit of confusion to a subject that is already complex, L. Rhamnosus JB-1 was previously identified as L. Reuteri. Classification was changed once full genome analysis was done.

    To keep in mind in future reads about these 2.

    Systemic Effects of Ingested Lactobacillus Rhamnosus: Inhibition of Mast Cell Membrane Potassium (IKCa) Current and Degranulation

    "L rhamnosus (JB-1), is the same strain as that employed in several published investigations [1], [17], [18] and was previously referred to as L reuteri. This strain was recently confirmed as a Lactobacillus rhamnosus, by AFLP fingerprinting and full genomic analysis. It was identified as a strain distinct from L rhamnosus GG [19], and any of the 118 L. rhamnosus strains, examined by Vancanneyt et al. [20] and does not belong to any of the 7 clusters identified by the Bacteria Collection Laboratory for Microbiology, University of Ghent, Belgium."


  17. Peter,

    If I may add on our experience with bioamicus reuteri, I had started experiencing lot of mild digestive issues a year or so after child birth. I have a sensitive stomach in the sense I have always thrived on fresh home cooked food and quite prone to digestive upsets with change of weather. But heartburn and general unease after dinner were never my issues till recently so much so that I started skipping dinner, making do with done fruits or yogurt. But today after taking a second dose of l reuteri, I gingerly ingested some fried potatoes and sweetcakes and then some more fried potatoes. And feeling just perfect..not a trace of discomfort. Could probiotics really be that effective?

    Welcome dinner..fingers crossed.

  18. Peter, I don't have words to express how happy I am. I up the dose to 3 grams and the effect was much better. The improvement is so notorious in his overall behaviour,calmness and cognitive enhancement.His permanent anxiety gave place to roleplays and curiousness,as an example,he makes up movie themes with sense and creativeness and write them down in his ipad,much better and propositional conversation, and almost no stimming when seeing movies.I never thought my turn would come.I don't know what happened but he is another boy. Valentina

    1. Valentina, I am very happy for you and your son.

    2. I wish you the best for your son, he is in the best hands!

    3. Valentina, what 3 grams (of what) are you giving your son? That is very exciting!

    4. I think Valentina was referring to lcr35.. available commercially as zarbee in US.
      Is it a strain of l.rhamnosus.

    5. Hi, I give him the probiotic Bacilor, l.rhamnosus L35.

  19. Peter,

    Would you recommend a trial of some probiotics with proven psychologically beneficial called psychobiotics.

    A combination of L.helveticus R0042 and Bifidobacterium longum RO175 was shown to alleviate anxiety, aggression and increased problem solving in human volunteers.

    Similarly another Bifidobacterium longum strain increased cognitive performance in anxiety ridden 'mice'.

    Bifidobacterium longum RO175 and L.heleveticus RO52ND combination is available as Mood probiotic.

    Is it advisable or too much of daredevilry?

    It seems L.rhamnosus strains also have proven psychological impacts..

    If L.reuteri could have such profound impacts on emotional well being of certain individuals I was wondering what could these other researched strains do. Or could it be just a hype catering to the commerce involved.

    But one thing is for sure..there is a very definite link between the gut and behabiour, and prone to hypersensitivities, autistic kids might be profoundly affected behaviourally by what goes on in the gi tract.. leaky gut and those opioids and toxins leaking into the circulatory system, something I laughed away, seems not so much a figment of imagination anymore.

    Coming back to my query about probiotics specifically being marketed for management of psychological issues.
    .what is your gut feeling?

    1. Kritika, there are lots of new probiotic bacteria in the pipeline as drugs, even one for type 2 diabetes. Clearly some probiotics will help some people, but I think most will not. There is no way to know without trying, but this does get expensive.

      The Bifidobacterium longum RO175 and L.heleveticus RO52ND combination seems to help some people but have no positive effect in most.

      In the end it would be useful to have a list of which probiotics help at least some people with autism, and then you would just try those. I do not think it will be a long list.

  20. At times when probiotics are not enough to treat respiratory infections and beyond, you might want to try "humming".

    2006;66(4):851-4. Epub 2006 Jan 10.
    Strong humming for one hour daily to terminate chronic rhinosinusitis in four days: a case report and hypothesis for action by stimulation of endogenous nasal nitric oxide production.

    Vibration massage is also very good. It works.

    1. Petra,

      This one is made in India. Strong humming or better still humming with ears and eyes and probably nostrils also closed is called bhramari asan in India and hS lots of benefits.
      I am seriously considering yoga for or my son once he settles down a,little.

      Petra, following your advice i did try l.reuteri almighty with my son and what a change of scene..sorry, stomach. My heartburn is almost gone..I am using 'almost' as a knock on wood kind of term.

      I also wanted to take your advice on giving zinc and selenium to my son. He sprouted a grey hair at the age of six months after amoxicillin use because as a new mom I got so scared of my babies cold that I insisted to his paed and he reluctantly relented. Now he gets one or two grey hair on and off which indicates something is wrong somewhere. Now that my son is responding well to l.reuteri, I was wondering if better digestion would enable lessening of certain deficiencies or at least complement supplementation.

      What would a good zinc and selenium dose be..I see in your son 11 mg/day of zinc has been recommended. My son is younger. Please suggest if possible.

    2. Petra and Kritika - this is so interesting! I have read that humming or chanting stimulates the vagus nerve. We have always noticed here good days result when my kid hums all day. so many with autism hum - but it is given that bad label of "verbal stum" that must be stopped. It is a soothing mechanism to help vagus nerve/nervous system I am convinced. Kritika, I think the yoga breathing exercises are so healing! There are therapies to help asthma and allergies using proper breathing techniques - like Buteyko method. So many things besides taking a pill

    3. Hello Kritika,
      I also think yoga would be a wonderful intervention for people who need to develop proprioception and relaxation techniques, and since it's part of your tradition it's easy for you to do.
      Far more wonderful is that both you and your son respond so well to L reuteri.
      I've trialled several probiotics and found out L reuteri strains are the most supportable so far.
      The truth is when you start with a good probiotic you never want to leave.
      As for zinc, my mistake, doctor advised 22mg/d elementary zinc, but I bought 11mg tablets to start low. On me it felt too relaxing and haven't given my son yet.
      I sometimes give 50mcg selenium which I think is a good dose to cover marginal deficiency.
      I hope your interventions work well for your son.

  21. Hello Peter,

    I know it's a sensitive topic but what do you make of the Finland study where intake of l.rhamnosus during pregnancy and breastfeeding by the mother and then continuing supplementation in the baby following breast feed cessation significanyly reduced development of autism or ADHD as compared to the placebo group. In fact none of the kids given the probiotic showed the disorder as against 17% in the control.

    If scientifically rigorous, this could be huge for parents in dilemma about going for a second child when the first born has the diagnosis. This is emotionally so daunting.

    1. Kritika, it is an interesting study. It was a small study though. It was originally looking at atopic eczema, which is interesting because eczema is a predictor of asthma. Both eczema and asthma are associated with autism. Given the safety of common probiotics it would be worthwhile taking them during pregnency and giving them to the baby. People are giving Biogaia Protectis to tiny babies.

      My older son has asked me if there are clever ways to try to minimize the risk of autism. There certainly are things that can be done. One is to have a dog at home, this changes gut bacteria in the humans in the household. Avoiding stress is very important, emotional stress leads to biological stress. So yes I would also suggest people take one or two probiotics, hopefully the right ones.

  22. Hi Peter, could you have a look at this product for rhinitis?

    4.1.7. Carragelose® by Marinomed (Vienna, Austria)

    Carrageenans are a family of linear sulfated polysaccharides that are extracted from red edible seaweeds, mainly Rhodophyceae seaweeds. They are widely used in the food industry, for their gelling, thickening, and stabilizing properties. The three main copolymer are designated as Iota, kappa and lambda, according with the number and location of the sulphate moieties on the hexose moiety [95]. Marinomed Biotechnologie GmbH, an Austrian company developed an innovative antiviral nasal spray, containing Iota-carrageenan (Carragelose®), that was proven clinically effective against early symptoms of common cold, and is marketed as an OTC drug. It exerts its action creating a protective physical anti-viral barrier in the nasal cavity.

    Would it be worth a trial? thanks

  23. Hello Peter,

    My son continues to have affectionate and connected behaviour, six days into bioamicus reuteri. Level is not above his best days, communication and awareness wise. But if we get an extended period on this, we will be able to shift the baseline. He was joining three words together and today waved and verbalized bye bye unprompted to a few persons while leaving his therapy center. I do not what kind of impacts on communication will be there following long term use of L.reuteri though I have always maintained that maintaining perfect digestive status seems to help him a lot.

    I increased his dose to five drops thrice a day but I probably observed short periods of upset..moments of crying.. and delayed sleep. Not sure though. Will not go higher than this for a few days. What do you think?

    Now my other queries

    1. All of you are discussing allergies, mast cells and histamines. RGs daughter and Angeiszkas sin regressed terribly due to undiagnosed allergies. How can one determine if ones child has allergies or mast cell issues? Ig profile? I am really worried about this one and though trying to read not getting a hang of it.

    2. What is the current dose of protectis that you are giving to your son? Did you try increasing it and with what consequences?

    3. Did you trial NCIMB 30242? Thinking of trying it myself first as the CFU us quite high.

    4. Amazon India and eBay India combined are now being able to provide biogaia protectis, gastrus, Lcr35. I am not H2 intolerant
    Does that mean gastrus is not an option for us?

    Or should I opt for the tried abd tested bioamicus. I have to order another one now if I want another bottle before I run out of it.

    Do direct

    1. It looks like the use of certain probiotic bacteria is protective against developing allergy.

      I use 2 tablets a day of Protectis, in peak allergy days I have given 4 tablets and it has a greater effect.

      I have some NCIMB 30242 but have not yet tried it. I did try Alflorex/Align and it had an immediate negative effect (itchy skin and redness under the nose) and mild negative behavioural impact.

      I would try Gastrus, just start with half a pill and see if you have any negative reaction.

      If you are buying from BioAmicus, why not try their Johnsonii as well. It also might do something useful.

  24. Peter,

    Forgot to mention, L.rhamnosus GG is also there.

  25. Peter,

    L.johnsonii when supported by bacteria from our dogs star dust might prevent development of allergies in future in my son as studies have shown. L.johnsonii in isolation was not found to be that effective. Dog dust! Fascinating.

    However when it comes to reversing autism like behaviour, L.reuteri strains for socialization and the non available B.fragilis, which eases more autistic traits, win hands down, it seems.

    Probably a combination might be more useful.

    How about fecal transplants from healthy kids belonging to communities inhabiting remote, untainted areas? That time will come soon too.

    First the long March of Western civilization and then harvesting bacteria from the savages. Had I been the Peruvian woman, I would have refused my milk..

    The savage and the dog! There is more to come.

  26. Hello Peter,

    My son seems to be doing well..interactive, responsive and lot of shared attention. More verbal attempts. A little whining, irritability and demanding has crept in..but in a way it indicates a desire to stay connected. For the last two days after I had upped his dose to five drops three times a day, I could see him acting sort of silly and goofy.. somdthing he does either when he is sleep deprived or when he does not want to comply. Also crying too much, too baby like, closing, rather scrunching close the eyes while smiling as if emotionally overwhelmed. But today he was fine. It seems 200 million CFU is quite a potent dose though doubts are raised how much effective a probiotic with low bacterial density may be.
    Peter, do you have an idea about the duration for which l.reuteri survives in the gi tract. What if I increase the dose with decreased frequency.

    Regardless of minor behavioural variations to which my son is susept in response to so many variables, I must say, l.reuteri has an overall impact on social connectedness, not explained solely as a secondary outcome of better digestion.

    I also do feel that there has also been some kind of combined effect of bumetanide and the probiotic..he is better than what he was one month back. However, I am sure I am not able to manage his electrolyte levels. His bowel movement changed a little in the sense that his stools were a little harder as compared to before. Potassium deficiency does cause constipation..and then there was the sensory behaviour.

    The moment i would give my son burinex, within one hour he would start the peripheral vision thing which would only fade by the next day. Something happened inside his body on which he hyperfocussed. Potassium up to 300 mg did not help although that amount was enough to trigger gastric episodes. Day before yesterday, encouraged by the probiotic, I gave him potassium 300 mg as a single dose. And had he not been on the probiogic, we would have had a rerun of the earlier terrible gastric attack. This one was milder but i am really wary of potassium now.

    Also, there is a possibility of Na levels going haywire, as with Christine's son, which would render the entire bumetanide protocol useless.

    Two days after stopping bumetanide, the peripheral vision is gone, stools are back to normal though auditory sensitivity remains along with a weird behavior of running from plug point to plug point staring at the holes.

    Peter, one more set of observations. His crying at erections almost gone and so has the frequency with which he seemed to be having them. While on task yesterday, he whined a little, holding his and when I checked there was no erection. So you see now it's more of a behaviour now than a physical response. I am confident we can remedy this behaviour. I do not know what to attribute tbis change to..

    Apart from the probiotics which I have now included as a permanent supportive intervention, what more could I try. His short attention span and a little over the top demanding (this actually started after NAC and now has taken permanent residence and which sometimes deteriorates into irritability and hitting) continue to be issues apart from the huge language deficit of course.

    I would be grateful for any ideas or suggestions on how to take it further.

    1. Hi Kritika,
      As for the duration L reuteri survives in the GI track, it should be about 15 days.
      When I wanted to switch from Gastrus (suspect histamine causing allergic rhinitis) to Protectis, I asked the company's gastrenterologist, who is also the owner of the pharmaceuticals, and gave me this information.
      Maybe Peter knows better than this.

    2. Peter and Petra

      Thank you Petra for that information. I do not understand why we are supposed to dose so it that other microbes crowd it out and if so in how many days? Would you have any idea about what conditions under which l
      .reuteri survives for 15 days in the GI tract are they are referring to.

      Peter, I would like you to know that the therapy center noted a change in his overall behaviour..'very happy and enjoying himself'.

      I noticed the subtleties..when the teacher who works on language and computers went away for some errand leaving my son alnoe, he sat peacefully, gazing at the screen, his face cupped in his hands like an nt kid.

      He was interactive during his ot session and the therapist, who is new and a little dumb, also seemed to be enjoying the session.

      Finally, while leaving, after wsving good bye to a grandma who comes there daily with her grandson, my son actually leaned forward towards her and offered his cheek so that she may kiss him. Everybody noticed this.

      I think we cannot totally discount the role oc bumetanide in this which I have temporarily suspended.

    3. Kritika, the effect (if indeed present) of bumetanide will gradually fade over a few days.

  27. Kritika,
    Being a consumer of a specific pharmaceutical product, you have the right to contact their medical department and get your answers according to research. This is what I usually do.

    1. Hi Petra,

      Yes, you are right. We have a right to ask for information from not only pharmaceutical companies but also other agencies about their products.. specially the ones which leave you asking for a loan, or rather casually dropping hints about this new, very expensive stuff that you tried with their grandchild, from your parents, towards the months ending.

      Apart from the initial hesitation I was also apprehensive about the objectivity of their response, as obviously their interest will be in us consuming highest dosage as against ours, which would be to get the maximum benefit with lowest dose.

      Well, to economise, I have left my son's bioamicus reuteri alone, and started consuming NCIMB 30242 myself, unwilling to try it on him right now. One tablet taken on alternate days seems to keep the acidity issues away although if taken with dinner, there is a little stomach rumbling through the night.

  28. Hi Kritika,
    I know that we don't exactly live in "angels society" and obviously profit is the end of the deal.
    It may sound "naive" but I always give credit to the individual I am dealing with in person and so far I rarely feel let down.
    In the probiotic case, to my astonishment, the pharmaceutical company distributing Biogaia in Greece, made something really exceptional for me just because I asked.
    As I was looking for Gastrus, which is not yet available in Greece, I called the owner, told my problem, they contacted Sweeden, and agreed that I am entitled to have the product free of charge as long as it hasn't been registered here yet, because they claim that the specific probiotic is supposed to be much more beneficial in our case.
    Whenever I ask information they send me a formal e-mail with the answers they have.
    So far I wasn't asked for anything in return.
    As for the issue of probiotic quantity one may need, I read a paper, I just don't have the reference right now, which said that they supplemented probiotics every other day and it worked well for some pathologiies.

    1. Thanks Petra. I too read the alternate day regime for some probiotic somewhere but do not remember now.

      As for the unconditional cooperation you have received from others, probably it's something about you and not them.


  29. Started Culturelle (LGG) today, 1 tablet on empty stomach upon wakening.

    It could be me, but I noticed a strong itching sensation and I was not even aware of its possible effects on histamine till I decided to post it here that Im giving it a trial (30 tablets in total).

    This was the reason for me using it:

    A possible link between early probiotic intervention and the risk of neuropsychiatric disorders later in childhood: a randomized trial.

    Also I seem to have some candida (white plaques on tongue) and LGG seems to effective for it according to pubmed.

    On top of that it seems to upregulate SERT (sertonin transporter) in the gut, this is downregulated in Crohn's (something I have a couple of genes of and my mother has crohns).

    Will let you all know how it goes, the itching seemed to go away after 30minutes, but I feel as if it leaves me with impulsivity? Might be very early to judge, but then again reuteri atcc 6475 also has had acute effects for me.

  30. Regarding my Culturelle (L. GG) experience, Ive used 8 capsules in total so far spread over amount of days, and my experience is NEGATIVE. It feels like immune activation, headaches, painfull muscles and all that, this effect lasts 3-4hours then slowly goes away, it happens EVERY time, this cant be good for me and so I thought id post it as a word of warning.

    As you can expect Im disappointed (after all this was the strain in the study that mentioned that kids that got this strain at early age had less asd/adhd). After doing some research it indeed appears to be true that L. GG can and most likely will in a lot of individuals INCREASE TLR-4 secretion, reuteri atcc 6475 DECREASES TLR-4. Be aware people.

    @petra petra and others:

    Have you tried VSL-3? If so what was your experience.

    Also inulin seems to be a cheap way to increase bifido strains which is low in autism/asd. Who has tried inulin for longer periods?

  31. Hi Aspie 1983,
    VSL#3 reduces stereotypy and turns my son completely normal. This effect has never been desirable since it makes him feel miserable.
    Maybe try it at first in a low dose, half the sachet for example and wish you good luck with it.

    I've had success with low dose zinc gluconate. When rhrinitis symptoms are obvious, I give 20mg only, if no obvious rhrinitis, then 10mg and if I raise the dose to 25mg he usually gets impulsive and he regrets it, so maybe not good. You say that you use 25mg daily, of course you are different but I thought I should let you know that. As I see it, zinc should not deplete histamine to such an extent that brain doesn't work the way asperger's wish. My son is about your size and really hope this makes sense.
    Off the record, I always have venlafaxine 37,5 extented release, for alarm situations and rarely uses it, but there must be some mechanism which calms him down. He has also suffered long term antidepressants and antipsychotics therapy which didn't work well long term.

    1. Petra has your son tried gastrus?

      With regards to VSL#3 that sounds very odd Petra, are you sure it would do him more good than harm? Sounds like hes having physical discomfort and possibly his immunesystem is taking a beating while on the VSL.

      I honestly have my doubts about VSL#3:

      The Probiotic Mixture VSL#3 Alters the Morphology and Secretion Profile of Both Polarized and Unpolarized Human Macrophages in a Polarization-Dependent Manner

      VSL#3 decreased the granuloma-like aggregates of M1 macrophages, increased fibroblast-like M2 macrophages, and decreased fibroblast-like MΦ macrophages. VSL#3 increased the secretion of IL-1β, IL-6, IL-10, and G-CSF by M1, M2, and MΦ macrophages. -->> VSL#3 exposure maintained the proinflammatory phenotype of M1 macrophages, sustaining IL-12 secretion, increasing IL-23 secretion, and decreasing MDC secretion. Both VSL#3-treated M2 and MΦ macrophages secreted higher levels of anti-inflammatory and pro-healing factors such as IL-1Ra, IL-13, EGF, FGF-2, TGF-α, and VEGF, as well as proinflammatory cytokines, including IL-12 and TNF-α. <<--

      increases TNF-A, IL-12, IL-13, this is all bad.

      From what I have read it doesnt seem to downregulate TLR4 like reuteri does, but it does damped the damage that LPS does through tlr4 activation.

      All-in-all its a very expensive probiotic and im not sure if I want to spend my money on it after my disappointing results with culturelle. Which shows once again despite studies being done even individuals with autism can respond very different and sometimes even have opposite results.

      I remember I tried inulin (the prebiotic) before and it made me somewhat happy, I consider giving it another go.
      Long story short: only biogaia gastrus has lived up to the hype for me so far.

      venlaxafine increases dopamine in the frontal cortex, this area is nearly always low in dopamine in autism/asd.

      With regard to zinc, I also respond well to lower doses.

  32. Aspie1983, maybe I didn't make myself clear in my previous comment. My bottom line is that VSL#3 is not good for my son's mood disorder/anhedonia.
    Biogaia gastrus certainly has a profound effect, even in much lower doses, one or two tablet a day, but it's kind of "love and hate relationship". Positive: It can make him sociable and outgoing. Negative: He can end up catastrophizing with emotions.

  33. Thanks Petra, after re-reading it makes sense now what you said. I will pass on the VSL#3 trial, it seems your son and me respond somewhat similar to me. l-glutamine seems to have some similarities with my perceived effects of reuteri by the way, it might be worthwhile experimenting low doses of glutamine. High doses Id stay away from, the gut needs low amounts to heal its lining plus its obviously a precursor to both glutamate and gaba in the brain aswell glutamine itself has functions in the brain. If I stay under 3gram daily I have only positive effects from it, but if you do want to try it I suggest start low (such as 500mg daily), remember it has to be taken on an empty stomach.


Post a comment